You don't have to abandon personal selfhood...

[goody]

Well, it is what I have learned from Zen Masters and other spiritual teachers: karma and reincarnation do exist for those who are not enlightened. Because they don't know oneness and tightly hold their egos, they will have to flow with karma and reincarnation in endless lifetimes. If you are enlightened, you see the truth and abandon the ego, you break the death-life cycle,and you are totally free. But, for those who are enlightened and also want to save people from the sea of karma, they prefer not to enter nirvana(which means personal selfhood is abandoned), they will assume some selfhood to re-enter the world, and save people. That's why I am saying you don't have to abandon personal selfhood if you have strong wish to save other people after you are enlightened.

[michaelsees]

It's a interesting concept.
How I look at this has to do with desire and ego.
If a person(which really does not exist anyhow) chooses to abandon Nirvana or whatever that would indicate that they still have desires and the ego is still working for them.
So if they come to this crossroad they have not reached full realization to begin with.

However in my world the person-hood is not real so this whole issue is moot.

peace
Michael

[zendancer]

Oct 31, 2010 10:48:51 GMT -5 goody said:

Well, it is what I have learned from Zen Masters and other spiritual teachers: karma and reincarnation do exist for those who are not enlightened. Because they don't know oneness and tightly hold their egos, they will have to flow with karma and reincarnation in endless lifetimes. If you are enlightened, you see the truth and abandon the ego, you break the death-life cycle,and you are totally free. But, for those who are enlightened and also want to save people from the sea of karma, they prefer not to enter nirvana(which means personal selfhood is abandoned), they will assume some selfhood to re-enter the world, and save people. That's why I am saying you don't have to abandon personal selfhood if you have strong wish to save other people after you are enlightened.

Goody: These concepts probably function more as obstacles to understanding than anything else. There is no one who can choose to abandon ego because there is no separation to begin with. This is what enlightenment is--the realization of no separation. Whatever happens is the manifestation of oneness; there is no separate chooser and no coming or going in THIS. As Michael noted, when this is seen, all of these issues become moot.

[mits]

I tend to think of it this way: What I do unto others I do to myself. Isn't this essentially Karma. By the way how can you guage if some-one is awakened or enlightened? As from what I've read about Ramana Maharishi he emmited a field around him which others could sense - which seems a bit far-fetched

[michaelsees]

No one can gauge another persons development, if they are fully realize etc. Ramana taught the most when he was in Silence. For people that sat with him and we close to realization it was probably a help for them.
However not to be confuse with some guru's that are written about where they do shatipat etc.
For me Karma is simply another belief being part of the mind.
Best to give up all beliefs when it comes to spirituality IMO
peace
Michael

Oct 31, 2010 17:42:31 GMT -5 mits said:

I tend to think of it this way: What I do unto others I do to myself. Isn't this essentially Karma. By the way how can you guage if some-one is awakened or enlightened? As from what I've read about Ramana Maharishi he emmited a field around him which others could sense - which seems a bit far-fetched

[klaus]

mits,

To say karma and reincarnation exist for those who are not enlightened because they don't know oneness is like saying if you don't believe in Jesus as your saviour you will be d**ned to hell.

In both cases the motivation is not love but fear.

In either case they are beliefs and have no basis in THAT.

As far as helping others act without thought or hesitation.