Possessive love, Agape etc.

[jesse]

I've been transitioning into what McKenna refers to as "human adulthood" for the past year or so and have run into a huge snag. Recently I happened to walk in on my girlfriend engaging in a sexual act with a fellow that wasn't me. While I've always considered my relationship with her to be non-possessive, this has had a serious effect on me. She was abused as a child and suffers from pretty serious self esteem issues, and the incident in question I know is fully attributable to this, and I have forgiven her completely.

The thing is, now that I've suffered emotionally as a result, I'm beginning to question weather what I have been experiencing all along is actually regular old possessive love, and that I was just putting myself on about the whole agape thing. Now, instead of being indifferent toward her actions, I feel I would be devastated and perhaps unable to forgive her if any such thing were to happen again. This manner of thinking/feeling/experiencing has got to be a serious bane to the transformative process.

I love "her", but there is no "her" to love, really.. It's the most conflicted I've felt, maybe ever. It almost feels like I have to choose between my relationship with her (or romantic relationships in general) or the quest for Awakening, weather it be into the dream or out of it.

What is the Universe saying? I'm waiting for a pattern to emerge.

Is possessive love a healthy thing to engage in? And even if so, how does one go about cultivating a real sense of agape? General opinions, thoughts, sentiments on the subject?

Cheers,

Jesse

[dei]

Since Anyone can have an opinion ...

A couple of factors you might want to consider... and i'd suggest doing The Work (by Byron Katie) on some of the thoughts that you're having.

Enough - Why is it that humans think they should be Enough for someone else? It's pretty insane to think that any other person somehow completes us. How does it make you (me, anyone) feel to think "i'm not enough for my lover" and yet perhaps somewhere we recognize that they are not enough for us (and why should they be)? Does not being enough make anyone inadequate?

Possession - we don't own anyone (not even ourselves). Jealousy arises from a fear of loss of something we don't even own. Insane concept.

Separating Love from the ideas of being enough and possessing is tricky. Love is effortless but relationships take work.

Just a few ideas that anyone might share.

[klaus]

Jesse,

What you experienced when you discovered your girlfriend sleeping with another was ego death (temporary).
Did you feel a total viceral void where there was no "I" only void?

Her past and your forgiveness because of it had nothing to do with agape and everything to do with your ego trying to survive this trauma and it is your ego wondering if it could survive if confronted with this situation again.

[waddicalwabbit]

This is a big issue including breach of trust which might be considered rational and reasonable. If you loaned someone a pile of money and they didn't pay you back, would you trust them next time? Broken agreements can obviously result in not doing 'business' with that person anymore. When you have an agreement to be 'faithful' to one another, in exclusive relationship and that person breaks that agreement, the natural outcome is to assume the contract needs renegotiating at least. If it's an 'open' relationship, then that's another story. I've seen some of those at least seem to work, but not many.

If it feels like 'betrayal' rather than breach of contract, then we're pushing some egoic buttons. There's a huge difference. I might quit doing biz with a company that didn't deliver. I might not make an agreement with someone who is unable to follow through on that agreement.

Once you settle all of that emotional hash, then I think you might begin to look at the experience from a deeper 'consciousness' perspective. "There is no 'I" and all of that. But there's some basic emotional wellness issues that seem to need to be looked at first. Otherwise I think there's a bunch of probable denial going on.

[waddicalwabbit]

AND! I'm really sorry if this has been and is being hard for you, Jesse.

[zendancer]

Jesse: You wrote, "While I've always considered my relationship with her (my girlfriend) non-possessive, this has had a serious effect upon me." So, perhaps the idea that your relationship was non-possessive was just an idea. What is the reality?

You wrote, "I know that the incident in question is fully attributable to this (her past)." How do you know that? Is this not another idea? Would it really matter what caused the incident? You might want to investigate this.

You wrote, "I'm beginning to question whether ...I was just putting myself on about the whole agape thing." Excellent! Reality is forcing you to look at your ideas.

You wrote, "I love "her", but there is no "her" to love, really.." This is just an idea. What is the truth? (hint--what you are confronting is neither "her" nor "not her", it is beyond ideas of existence or non-existence)

You wrote, "It's the most conflicted I've felt, maybe ever." If this is true, then you might be on the verge of a real breakthrough in understanding.

You wrote, "It almost feels like I have to choose between my relationship with her (or romantic relationships in general) or the quest for Awakening, weather it be into the dream or out of it." This is just another idea based upon the idea of personal doership. You might want to look into this issue more deeply.

You wrote, "Now, instead of being indifferent toward her actions, I feel I would be devastated and perhaps unable to forgive her if any such thing were to happen again." Have you really been indifferent toward her actions? Why would you be devastated if it happened again if you were willing to forgive her and were not devastated the first time?

You wrote, "This manner of thinking/feeling/experiencing has got to be a serious bane to the transformative process." Quite the contrary; it might lead to true transformation. You have lots of ideas, but reality is smacking you in the face.

Here is a quote from Byron Katie's book, A Thousand Faces of Joy, about this very subject (pp89-90):

If my husband were to have an affair and that were not okay with me, I would say, "Sweetheart, I understand that you're having an affair, and I notice that when you do that, something inside me tends to move away from you. I don't know what that is, I only know that it's so; it mirrors your movement away from me, and I want you to know that." And then if he were to continue his affair, to prefer to spend his time with another woman, I might notice that I was moving away, but I wouldn't have to leave him in anger. There is nothing I can do to stay with him, and there is nothing I can do to divorce him. I'm not running this show. I might stay with him, or I might divorce him in a state of total love, and think "This is fascinating; we promised we would be together always, and I'm divorcing him now," and I would probably laugh, love that he has what he wants, and move on, because there is no war in me.

Do you see what Byron Katie is pointing to in this quotation? "Agape" means that you want your girlfriend to be happy EVEN IF SHE'S NOT WITH YOU, but what you may do in response to her actions is unknowable. You may go or you may stay.

Someone reportedly asked Christ something like, "How often must a person be forgiven?" and Christ essentially responded, "Forever." This doesn't mean, however, that you won't choose to leave your relationship. You might say to your girlfriend, "I will love you forever, but I won't be able to live with you, and it has nothing to do with ideas of any kind."

The bottom line is this: you have to go deep enough to discover the truth, and then the issue will be out of your hands. You will then know precisely what you must do. Best wishes.

[charliegee]

Jesse,
first off, I sympathize with the pain you feel. it is very real pain, that is the fact. any idea about it is secondary. the primary issue is what to do with that pain. I was in a similar position not too long ago, a similar position in the fact that I was suffering very deeply. my wife was sick with ovarian cancer (that was the primary condition) causing me great pain. one, in looking back at the many times I had failed her (and I had) and two, wondering how the hell I was going to live without her. somehow, with the grace of god, I was able to deal with her suffering and death and was able to stay right there in the midst of that. I settled in, in a manner of speaking, and just flat out grieved when she died. stayed there in my pain with no inclination to escape my suffering whether through chemicals (which was always my way) or through ideation whether it was looking back in regret or looking forward in fear. I cried when it was time to cry, laughed when I could and was able, with the grace of God, for the first time in my life to be present 'right where I was.' forget about analyzing why you feel the way you do or condemning yourself for not living up to some standard. I know our situations were different but pain is pain and suffering is suffering no matter how we rationalize it or try to explain it away. I was able to come out the other side of the situation by simply staying in it. it's not easy but sometimes there's no alternative to just being there, empty and in pain, but alive. I hope I made some kind of sense here. wishing you grace and peace.

charlie gee

[robert]

jesse- this may already be a pattern you just happened to walk in on it today. not a judgement thing just a thing. or maybe the universe is showing you a path.
robert

[enigma]

"What is the Universe saying? I'm waiting for a pattern to emerge.
Is possessive love a healthy thing to engage in? And even if so, how does one go about cultivating a real sense of agape? General opinions, thoughts, sentiments on the subject?
Cheers,
Jesse"

I would say if you're exploring the boundaries of relationships through S/A, then the universe is showing the boundaries of relationships. Maybe I'm being naive but it seems pretty simple to me.

"Possessive love" is what it is; expectation of fulfillment from another; illusion. Expectations are the active sabotaging of that which is expected to fulfill the expectations.

Genuine love is acceptance and appreciation, devoid of need and expectations. Ironically, what this means is that you can't have a loving relationship until you are quite certain you don't have any need for one.

In any other context, this would be misunderstood: I don't love Marie and she doesn't love me. Neither of us knows how to love, nor are we in possession of some love that we can offer the other, and yet Love flows between us like a river overflowing it's banks. Since we have nothing to do with it, it's effortless, and since it is effortless, there is nothing but gratitude and appreciation.

How does one go about cultivating such a Love? One doesn't, which is the whole point. If you see that you know nothing of Love, that you have never loved, that you can neither give nor receive Love, that Love is present only when you are absent, then Love may take you. The best that you can hope to do in any relationship with anything or anyone, is to come empty.

[peanut]

Jesse... sometimes the most painful experiences become growth opportunities. A friend of mine called them FOG. Lol Anyway sounds like you are in one! Seems most helpful to meet it where you are. You can't meet it at the level you want to be at. So face it where you are. Examine what is really going on. Ask yourself if the thoughts you are having are true? Take each one separately and write it down. It's easy to feel overwhelmed when in pain. Please keep us posted. You might be surprised with what you discover!!

[peanut]

Awesome post E!!!!!

[enigma]

Sept 23, 2010 20:42:12 GMT -5 peanut said:

Awesome post E!!!!!

Hey, talk is cheap! Here I am pouring my heart out and still one karma point behind Zen. Do I get exalted? NOOooOoOoooooOO!
(tehe)

[zendancer]

E: Look at it this way. You've only posted half as many times but you have the same number of points. This means that each of your posts is worth twice as much. Faulkner and Hemingway never had it so good, so stop moaning already.

After relating some of the issues in this thread to various friends, their only question was: How does one go deeper? How does one get to a place where all paradoxes resolve, all problems dissolve, and all questions evaporate? Easy. Don't run, don't hide, and let it all be what it is. Feel it, without moving toward it or away from it. Be still. Bear in mind what you want to know, but don't use the mind to do anything. The mind already understands all of the issues involved, but where the mind isn't is where the answers are. Strangely, I woke up in the middle of the night last night upon hearing these words, "Between is and is not is where the infinite is." Weird but true.

Carol asked me if it mattered whether the mind remains continually focused upon the conflict needing resolution. I told her that in my experience it doesn't matter at all. If that is done, then the question becomes a koan, and a koan is solved when attention drills in one spot long enough to break through. One can also listen to universal sound or do shikan taza and that will have the same effect. Pure feeling will do the same thing, as Charlie Gee has so eloquently pointed out. All of these approaches take us, in the words of TS Eliot, to "the still point of the turning world." There, in the emptiness, is where we find the truth of what is and how that truth must manifest.

[enigma]

" Look at it this way. You've only posted half as many times but you have the same number of points. This means that each of your posts is worth twice as much. Faulkner and Hemingway never had it so good, so stop moaning already."

Hmmm, okay that makes me feel a little better. Still, I dunno how I'm gonna win the karma prize without the points........Hey, wait! Somebody gave me a karma point. WooHoo! I'm back in the competition!

[charliegee]

joyful, joyful we exalt E ...