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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 13:35:42 GMT -5
That's a good question, and it may vary depending upon which Soto teacher you ask. Dogen's Chinese ZM acknowledged Dogen's realization that ended his spiritual search, and Adyashanti's teacher (Soto tradition) acknowledged one of his breakthrough events, but I don't think that the Soto tradition, in general, has a formal approach to acknowledgement or certification of attaining SR. I think that whether a student is clear enough to teach is primarily up to the student's teacher and his/her evaluation of the student's understanding. In the Rinzai tradition 2 Zen Masters other than a student's ZM have to interview a candidate and approve his/her understanding. Rinzai ZM's use koans to test one's understanding, and in many Rinzai schools, a formal testing ceremony is scheduled for people whose ZM's think are ready to teach or become ZM's. During those ceremonies anyone in the audience can ask the candidate questions, and the idea is that a concensus within the community is required to certify someone's understanding. The only questions that are not allowed are formal koans. Talk of realization or enlightenment is discouraged. But there are ceremonies related to dharma transmission. Shiho where you become a disciple and after some time you go through osho where you become a priest. It's s big deal. I recall my favorite disciple receiving osho after forty years with sensei. He was a slow learner, but great guy, crazy as hell. The same sort of thing is true in the Rinzai tradition. No one ever talks about the kinds of things we discuss on this forum, and people are discouraged from talking about any kind of personal attainment. One can read about NS and SR, but no one ever talks about those types of things. Students take an initial set of vows, and later, if they continue, they can take further vows and become a kind of student teacher, so there are two or three intermediary steps before one can become sanctioned as a sensei or dharma master or Zen Master.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 12:48:21 GMT -5
So, you have no reference for how koans get answered. That's ok, but just so you know, answers to koans are simple and direct and the answers appear suddenly. The resolution of every koan involves a realization that goes beyond words or concepts. Yes I do have a reference for Koans. It's to point the mind to silence as I said. I just decided to Google it and here is one article that aligns with my view. fractalenlightenment.com/37292/spirituality/5-zen-koans-that-will-open-your-mindI agree that a koan will silence the mind, but in the article you referred to, the reason for silencing the mind is to activate one's intuitive understanding, which is deeper than mind and can result in clear definitive answers. It should also be noted that ATA-T, staying with the sense of I Am, shikan taza, and many other meditative activities will also lead to a silent mind, from which insights can spontaneously occur.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 11:37:17 GMT -5
Please read what I wrote. I didn't write about a culmination of knowledge or experience. I wrote only about realizations. If you only had one big realizations that revealed everything to you, then that's cool, but you would be the exception. Most people who wake up have numerous realizations along the way You have never been clear about what these realizations are. You gave a long list of questions that could be the basis of a realization but none of that has anything whatsoever to do with SR. I really don't know how much I can emphasize this. People are different. Perhaps you weren't driven by curiosity and didn't have a lot of existential questions. This character did. One of the dozens of questions I had was, "Is there a God?" This had nothing to do with SR because I didn't even know what SR is, but the question about God was important. The kensho revealed the Infinite nature of reality and the fact that it was a unified whole--an incomprehensibly vast and intelligent aware living presence. It was like coming face to face with what the word "Brahman" points to. The infinite was seen to be beyond gender and beyond any possible conception. Seeing the Infinite left me in a state of awe, but "I" wasn't there until afterwards, when ordinary cognition and intellectual reflection returned. Nevertheless, there was no doubt about what was seen. As a result of the kensho, I realized that Reality is undivided, and that our usual conception of reality is an illusion. Prior to the kensho I had no idea what the answer to the Mu koan (a famous Zen koan that's given to people interested in enlightenment) might be, but after the kensho the answer was crystal clear. I could list dozens of other existential questions that consumed me at that time, but each question that got resolved was like a mini-realization. Some of the resolutions were minor in effect and some of them were major and life changing. As a result of the initial kensho and subsequent koan study on Zen retreats, I learned that anything I wanted to know could be discovered by becoming silent, and again and again, answers to my many questions would suddenly appear after periods of internal silence. I never pursued the "Who am I?" koan with any seriousness, but my final existential question was essentially that question in disguise. There were numerous events during which selfhood disappeared (NS, kensho, being in the zone, etc), and I began to think of those events as occasions of unity consciousness. After those events, the sense of selfhood always returned, and eventually that sequence of events generated a koan that was worded as, "How is it possible to remain in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently?" On Aug 17, 1999, after an experience of deep gratitude and a prayer of thanks, I felt different in some strange way, and a few hours later I happened to look within and the past sense of "me" had totally vanished along with any sense of a distinction between within and without. It was then immediately obvious that there had never been a "me" in the way that I had imagined, and that Reality, undivided, had been the only operant. The answer to the koan was that I had always been in a unity-conscious state of mind but hadn't known it. Does this help explain how someone with lots of existential questions may have numerous realizations prior to SR which later leads to the realization that we label "SR?"
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 11:02:04 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that you're not interested in this, but in the Zen tradition the question, "What is the true nature of a cat?" is a very simple koan to answer, and it has nothing to do with appearances. IOW, Zen has found a way to communicate about non-dual stuff in a way that is clear and down to earth. Zen is not interested in ideas, images, or symbols; it is interested in a deeper function of mind that can respond to existential questions intuitively and spontaneously. It's the difference between living in one's head and living through the body's natural intelligence which does not require words or concepts. I recall saying this to you a long time ago about koans. They present a paradox to the mind and ask for the answer to a question that doesn't make any sense. It forces the mind to come to an abrupt halt is it grapples with the koan and then gives up and then surrenders. In that moment of suspension is the opportunity to investigate that silence that now prevails. So, you have no reference for how koans get answered. That's ok, but just so you know, answers to koans are simple and direct and the answers appear suddenly. The resolution of every koan involves a realization that goes beyond words or concepts.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 10:26:25 GMT -5
Yes, and in many cases, probably most, there are numerous realizations along the way that eventually culminate in a realization that results in freedom and puts the mind to rest. There is no such thing as culmination of knowledge or experience that results in SR. Why? because you are already Self-realized and complete. If it's not a living reality that's only because the truth of what you already are has not been revealed. It is not about adding something to get SR, it's about revealing it by lifting the veil of ignorance. Please read what I wrote. I didn't write about a culmination of knowledge or experience. I wrote only about realizations. If you only had one big realizations that revealed everything to you, then that's cool, but you would be the exception. Most people who wake up have numerous realizations along the way
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 10:22:05 GMT -5
Stop spewing these empty words and phrases that you've memorized from your holy books! I am not talking about images. I am talking about an actual cat. You see, this is where you reveal that your understanding of Self is only theoretical. You can't tell the image of a cat from an actual cat. And so the way you are arguing here is the way a metaphysical solipsist argues, not a Jivanmukti. To the Jivanmukti, this topic of other perceivers doesn't even arise in the first place, because it is all self-evident, nothing has to be inferred when it has been realized, seen directly, non-conceptually. You are thinking too much and rely too much on second hand knowledge (books). you can't tell me what an actual cat is. I guarantee you have never experienced an actual cat. As a Jivan mukti it's not a topic that arises in my mind either but you seem to insist on it. I'm pretty sure that you're not interested in this, but in the Zen tradition the question, "What is the true nature of a cat?" is a very simple koan to answer, and it has nothing to do with appearances. IOW, Zen has found a way to communicate about non-dual stuff in a way that is clear and down to earth. Zen is not interested in ideas, images, or symbols; it is interested in a deeper function of mind that can respond to existential questions intuitively and spontaneously. It's the difference between living in one's head and living through the body's natural intelligence which does not require words or concepts.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 10:15:55 GMT -5
Yes, but you can't tell this to many Soto practitioners and expect to be heard because they are generally closed-minded on this subject. Dogen's teaching was a contrarian approach to what the Rinzai teachers had been doing at that time (several hundred years ago in Japan). The Rinzai sect took a more dynamic approach (both at that time and at the present time), but went somewhat off the deep end in their emphasis upon kensho. Dogen felt like Rinzai teachers were focusing too much on a future event, so his teaching encouraged people to stay present, and not look beyond whatever is happening in the present moment. Like you, I think this is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and going too far in the other direction. From all of my interactions with Soto practitioners, they don't seem to appreciate that kensho is a non-dual event that is not an experience in any usual sense (because it does not occur in time and there is no SVP involved in it). They also don't seem to know that a kensho can result in numerous significant realizations. After a big kensho in 1984, I wrote a letter to Maizumi Roshi, the ZM in charge of the LA Zen Center. He was the only human I knew about who might understand what had happened, and I was seeking advice about how to proceed. I didn't realize at that time that Maizumi was a ZM in the Soto tradition, so when I received a response to my letter from one of his senior disciples, I was somewhat dismayed by her advice and surprised that her note did not even acknowledge what had happened. I didn't know if the disciple had no reference for a kensho event, or where she was coming from. I only knew that if someone wrote to me today and described a huge kensho event, my response would be "Hallelujah! Through grace you've seen into your true nature, and that should be a cause of celebration, but there is much more to see, so here is what I suggest going forward......" The refusal to acknowledge or even appreciate what can be discovered via a kensho event seems like a "head in the sand" kind of approach to what is usually a major life-changing event. So didn't that advice from the disciple of Maizumi Roshi make you question whether you were attaching unnecessary significance to such a transitory experience? No. Not at all. In fact, just the opposite. It made me question her understanding and whether she had seen as deeply into the nature of reality as I had. I knew what had been seen, and I knew that several of my most important existential questions had been answered definitively as a result of the kensho. Again, the kind of kensho that Reefs and I are pointing to is not a transitory experience. It's an event that happens beyond time, is non-dual, and is life-changing. Imagine that you had no reference for NS, and one day while meditating you entered that state. Not knowing what it was, and being surprised by what you discovered, imagine that you wrote to a teacher, described what happened, and asked about NS. Then imagine that the teacher ignored your description of that state, refused to acknowledge it or even discuss it, and responded by telling you to focus more closely on how air enters and leaves the body while meditating. Would that response make you doubt that you had attained NS? No, but it might make you doubt whether the teacher had ever attained NS.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 10:02:24 GMT -5
What you have described is the standard approach in most Soto zendos. Soto downplays kensho because Rinzai Zen put so much emphasis upon it, and Dogen wanted to emphasize that whatever is happening now is most important. Dogen, himself, had several sudden realizations, and was finally freed by a kensho that occurred while he was studying under a Chinese master. Yes, some kenshos only give a glimpse and some are so deep that they end the search completely. Reefs and I theorize that the Zen word "satori" is pointing to SR, but apparently satori can be either SR, as a single realization, or a deep kensho that may involve multiple realizations. The sudden "one big blast" type of realization is extremely rare. Most people's paths are gradual and involve numerous insights that eventually culminate is a realization that results in freedom and understanding. Yes, paths can be gradual, right up until the very moment when realization is sudden and immediate. Yes, and in many cases, probably most, there are numerous realizations along the way that eventually culminate in a realization that results in freedom and puts the mind to rest.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 10:00:38 GMT -5
Yes, but you can't tell this to many Soto practitioners and expect to be heard because they are generally closed-minded on this subject. Dogen's teaching was a contrarian approach to what the Rinzai teachers had been doing at that time (several hundred years ago in Japan). The Rinzai sect took a more dynamic approach (both at that time and at the present time), but went somewhat off the deep end in their emphasis upon kensho. Dogen felt like Rinzai teachers were focusing too much on a future event, so his teaching encouraged people to stay present, and not look beyond whatever is happening in the present moment. Like you, I think this is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and going too far in the other direction. From all of my interactions with Soto practitioners, they don't seem to appreciate that kensho is a non-dual event that is not an experience in any usual sense (because it does not occur in time and there is no SVP involved in it). They also don't seem to know that a kensho can result in numerous significant realizations. After a big kensho in 1984, I wrote a letter to Maizumi Roshi, the ZM in charge of the LA Zen Center. He was the only human I knew about who might understand what had happened, and I was seeking advice about how to proceed. I didn't realize at that time that Maizumi was a ZM in the Soto tradition, so when I received a response to my letter from one of his senior disciples, I was somewhat dismayed by her advice and surprised that her note did not even acknowledge what had happened. I didn't know if the disciple had no reference for a kensho event, or where she was coming from. I only knew that if someone wrote to me today and described a huge kensho event, my response would be "Hallelujah! Through grace you've seen into your true nature, and that should be a cause of celebration, but there is much more to see, so here is what I suggest going forward......" The refusal to acknowledge or even appreciate what can be discovered via a kensho event seems like a "head in the sand" kind of approach to what is usually a major life-changing event. What 'event' would soto people acknowledge and how would they confirm or validate it? That's a good question, and it may vary depending upon which Soto teacher you ask. Dogen's Chinese ZM acknowledged Dogen's realization that ended his spiritual search, and Adyashanti's teacher (Soto tradition) acknowledged one of his breakthrough events, but I don't think that the Soto tradition, in general, has a formal approach to acknowledgement or certification of attaining SR. I think that whether a student is clear enough to teach is primarily up to the student's teacher and his/her evaluation of the student's understanding. In the Rinzai tradition 2 Zen Masters other than a student's ZM have to interview a candidate and approve his/her understanding. Rinzai ZM's use koans to test one's understanding, and in many Rinzai schools, a formal testing ceremony is scheduled for people whose ZM's think are ready to teach or become ZM's. During those ceremonies anyone in the audience can ask the candidate questions, and the idea is that a concensus within the community is required to certify someone's understanding. The only questions that are not allowed are formal koans.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 9:18:03 GMT -5
What you have described is the standard approach in most Soto zendos. Soto downplays kensho because Rinzai Zen put so much emphasis upon it, and Dogen wanted to emphasize that whatever is happening now is most important. Dogen, himself, had several sudden realizations, and was finally freed by a kensho that occurred while he was studying under a Chinese master. Yes, some kenshos only give a glimpse and some are so deep that they end the search completely. Reefs and I theorize that the Zen word "satori" is pointing to SR, but apparently satori can be either SR, as a single realization, or a deep kensho that may involve multiple realizations. The sudden "one big blast" type of realization is extremely rare. Most people's paths are gradual and involve numerous insights that eventually culminate is a realization that results in freedom and understanding.Yes, and looking at it this way, both the sudden and the gradual school are correct. The contradiction only arises if one thinks there's only one way this can happen. Exactly.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 9:17:25 GMT -5
Not to disparage kensho or CC, but my sensei and Brad Warner's sensei told him to ignore those types of experiences. I don't know if this is the case in all Soto temples. Also the "gradual" approach implies that SR isn't caused by such an experience. I've heard several stories about kensho or CC experiences leading to disappointment because inevitably you come back to this world. Not to say it's not possible that the experience has a permanent effect. There are many stories as zd often points out where such an experience leads to freedom. But to say that this is the only way SR is revealed seems to me incredible. Certainly Dogen and RM both describe a somewhat gradual process. I think that is a misunderstanding. What we are referring to with CC/kensho is a realization, not an experience. And kensho means literally looking into your own nature. And that's what Zen is all about. If your teachers don't understand that or can't tell the difference between the experience and the realization, then you better find a new teacher. Either you misunderstood something or your teacher is just arguing from dogma, or both. And you better get to the bottom of that, because this is nonsense. I don't really know how this feud between the southern and the northern schools of Chan started, but it does remind me of the kind of feud we have here about one big realization vs. several consecutive realizations. You could call the first sudden enlightenment and the second gradual enlightenment. But in any case, a realization is always sudden, because it does not happen in time and is acausal. What does happen in time and is causal though is the integration process after realization. Yes, but you can't tell this to many Soto practitioners and expect to be heard because they are generally closed-minded on this subject. Dogen's teaching was a contrarian approach to what the Rinzai teachers had been doing at that time (several hundred years ago in Japan). The Rinzai sect took a more dynamic approach (both at that time and at the present time), but went somewhat off the deep end in their emphasis upon kensho. Dogen felt like Rinzai teachers were focusing too much on a future event, so his teaching encouraged people to stay present, and not look beyond whatever is happening in the present moment. Like you, I think this is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and going too far in the other direction. From all of my interactions with Soto practitioners, they don't seem to appreciate that kensho is a non-dual event that is not an experience in any usual sense (because it does not occur in time and there is no SVP involved in it). They also don't seem to know that a kensho can result in numerous significant realizations. After a big kensho in 1984, I wrote a letter to Maizumi Roshi, the ZM in charge of the LA Zen Center. He was the only human I knew about who might understand what had happened, and I was seeking advice about how to proceed. I didn't realize at that time that Maizumi was a ZM in the Soto tradition, so when I received a response to my letter from one of his senior disciples, I was somewhat dismayed by her advice and surprised that her note did not even acknowledge what had happened. I didn't know if the disciple had no reference for a kensho event, or where she was coming from. I only knew that if someone wrote to me today and described a huge kensho event, my response would be "Hallelujah! Through grace you've seen into your true nature, and that should be a cause of celebration, but there is much more to see, so here is what I suggest going forward......" The refusal to acknowledge or even appreciate what can be discovered via a kensho event seems like a "head in the sand" kind of approach to what is usually a major life-changing event.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2022 8:22:45 GMT -5
Not to disparage kensho or CC, but my sensei and Brad Warner's sensei told him to ignore those types of experiences. I don't know if this is the case in all Soto temples. Also the "gradual" approach implies that SR isn't caused by such an experience. I've heard several stories about kensho or CC experiences leading to disappointment because inevitably you come back to this world. Not to say it's not possible that the experience has a permanent effect. There are many stories as zd often points out where such an experience leads to freedom. But to say that this is the only way SR is revealed seems to me incredible. Certainly Dogen and RM both describe a somewhat gradual process. What you have described is the standard approach in most Soto zendos. Soto downplays kensho because Rinzai Zen put so much emphasis upon it, and Dogen wanted to emphasize that whatever is happening now is most important. Dogen, himself, had several sudden realizations, and was finally freed by a kensho that occurred while he was studying under a Chinese master. Yes, some kenshos only give a glimpse and some are so deep that they end the search completely. Reefs and I theorize that the Zen word "satori" is pointing to SR, but apparently satori can be either SR, as a single realization, or a deep kensho that may involve multiple realizations. The sudden "one big blast" type of realization is extremely rare. Most people's paths are gradual and involve numerous insights that eventually culminate is a realization that results in freedom and understanding.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 31, 2022 10:04:48 GMT -5
Initially E said that the universe doesn't exist, and when he stated that initially I think he meant that statement in the same way that others point to the difference between what is actual versus what is imaginary. Reality (with a capital R) is what is--an undifferentiated and undivided field of being. In QM terms, Reality is a superposition of infinite potentiality. The mind/intellect, which is an aspect of Reality, looks at the undifferentiated field of Itself and imagines that it's divided into abstract but distinct states. Imagining that a tree, for example, is separate from all that is not a tree, substitutes the idea/image/symbol "tree" for "the thing in itself" (der sing an dich in Kantian terms). In the terms of some philosophers the World 2 of abstract thought (the map) is brought forth from World 1, which is Reality (the territory). So far so good. Later, E seemed to shift his definitions and explanations about this, and began to talk about points of perception and no actuality beyond perception, etc., and that's where he lost me. The Tibetan meditator I talked to did not seem to understand the distinction between actual and imaginary, so I think he had totally misunderstood his Tibetan teachers. Did you ever notice the commonality between the characters that took the side of the debate that you can never know if there is another "real perceiver"? They all reported having had lucid dreams, and if I'm not mistaken, they each reported the experience of having had a false awakening, where they really lost the distinction between waking life and the dream. Just like NS, that's something I have to imagine to relate to, and it seems to me that in E's case, in particular, it put a line in the sand in terms of what he was willing to accommodate conceptually. Unlike figs and gopal, E' lost any and all interest in the dialogs about it. Yes, in fact I was just thinking about this yesterday. The reason I never talk about lucid dreaming is because I have no reference for it. I suspect that there is a close connection between dreaming and how active the intellect is, but I don't know how lucid dreaming is affected by mental silence. I can think of two or three sages who have claimed that when the intellect becomes significantly silent, dreaming often ceases. When I read close-minded statements that indicate only one pathway leads to THIS, I often wonder how familiar people are with the wide variety of ways various sages have discovered the Infinite. Many Zen adherents become notoriously attached to zazen as the only way to wake up, but that's usually because they join a closed system, in essence, and never read the literature about Christian mystics, Muslim/Sufi saints, or Advaita Vedanta sages such as Niz or Ramana. One size definitely does not fit all.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 31, 2022 8:06:23 GMT -5
Could it be your grasp of mathematics that is at fault? For me it's all adding up. I am That and That includes the appearance or non appearance of a cat. Realization adding up lesson. Self + Cat = Self Self - Cat = Self Spiritual experiences adding up lesson: Kensho1 + Kensho2 = Kensho1 + Kensho2 (Kensho1 + Kensho2) < SR (Kensho1 + Kensho2 + Kensho3) < SR You don't make much sense because you talk out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand you say you have to infer the true nature of the cat, and now you are saying that you are That and the cat is also That. I actually agree that kensho does not equal SR, because SR would include seeing thru the SVP. Which has been another sticky point with you. Also, you forgot NS in your spiritual experiences equation. There doesn't seem to be any reference for kensho or knowledge that there can be many different paths to discovering THIS. For some people kensho and SR can occur simultaneously, and that seems to have been the case with the Buddha. For many seekers, however, there can be several important realizations along the way that lead to greater and greater clarity before SR or a deep kensho ends the search. Furthermore, the search can end in many different ways, and some of them fall far short of either kensho or SR. I have a friend who was a serious seeker for more than twenty years, and recently he just gave up. He told me that he got tired of seeking and tired of never finding any answers. Another fellow had a realization that seeking is a mind game, and that ended his search. Neither of these men ever discovered THIS/Self, but they both claim that they now have peace of mind. Hakuin, by contrast, had numerous kenshos, each of which deepened his understanding, and what he describes as the satori that ended his search was actually a kensho, judging by his description of it being triggered by a sensory event. At the age of 19 Seung Sahn attained SR as a result of a deep kensho triggered by the ringing of a bell at a nearby temple after doing a 100 day solo retreat. Paul Morgan-Somers wasn't even a seeker when, at the age of 16, he was suddenly engulfed by what he calls "the ocean of being." Rinzai woke up after two Zen Masters played a game on him. Norio Kushi and Terry Stephens and Gary Weber woke up after their minds went silent for a period of time. If one reads the stories of a hundred people who discovered the Infinite each story is uniquely different, so imagining that there is only one pathway simply ignores the vast spiritual literature that's available.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 30, 2022 15:34:01 GMT -5
Ha! You'd think that mediation would make people more grounded and present. He must have daydreamed thru these 20 years of meditation. I'd like to hear about that, too. Because one common denominator among those Consciousness/Awareness talkers is that they never talk about such an event, even though they claim their understanding is based on a realization. But you never hear them talk about that realization in any detail, how and when and where it happened and how it suddenly changed everything. I just read last night an explanation, from experience, of why "the trees, the field, the washed out access road" are not an illusion in the sense they do not exist. That's seems to be how zd understood him. Instead of posting it here, I will > link< to it, it's on the thread I started, Natural Mind Meditation, the Crossover. E used to drive me bananas with his business that the universe doesn't exist, and of course that view is still around. So this is the view of Dzogchen/Mahamudra, I think Devenish explains very well. Initially E said that the universe doesn't exist, and when he stated that initially I think he meant that statement in the same way that others point to the difference between what is actual versus what is imaginary. Reality (with a capital R) is what is--an undifferentiated and undivided field of being. In QM terms, Reality is a superposition of infinite potentiality. The mind/intellect, which is an aspect of Reality, looks at the undifferentiated field of Itself and imagines that it's divided into abstract but distinct states. Imagining that a tree, for example, is separate from all that is not a tree, substitutes the idea/image/symbol "tree" for "the thing in itself" (der sing an dich in Kantian terms). In the terms of some philosophers the World 2 of abstract thought (the map) is brought forth from World 1, which is Reality (the territory). So far so good. Later, E seemed to shift his definitions and explanations about this, and began to talk about points of perception and no actuality beyond perception, etc., and that's where he lost me. The Tibetan meditator I talked to did not seem to understand the distinction between actual and imaginary, so I think he had totally misunderstood his Tibetan teachers.
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