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Post by zendancer on Apr 20, 2024 8:18:07 GMT -5
See edited response, above.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 19, 2024 16:01:16 GMT -5
This is really good. I think he explains it quite well why some of us say that you cannot practice your way to SR and yet recommend to continue practice at the same time. Thoughts? The pointing in this video seems to be totally clear, but apparently many people claim that Shunramurti is a cult leader who exploits people attracted to his ashram in Costa Rica. If the claims are true, then this may be a case of someone who has attained a deep understanding of what's going on, but has not yet escaped a narcissistic and manipulative mindset. It may be a case of listen to message but ignore the messenger.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 10, 2024 10:17:51 GMT -5
I agree because each human is unique, and the range of experiences and realizations that might occur for any particular human are infinite. I can't remember the details, but somewhere I read that Rohr had a big kensho event when he was young (about ten if I remember correctly), and that's probably why he knows with certainty that THIS is unified and infinite and why he is able to explain how the NT teachings are pointers to non-duality. His most humorous line is "Christ was not Jesus's last name." He distinguishes between Jesus, the human who discovered his unity with THIS, and Christ as THIS, ITSELF. If SR had occurred, I don't think he would make a statement such as, "I'm not there yet." As long as there's a "me" thinking "I'm not there yet," there's no there there. You and your high standards! I know; it's a major failing. There seem to be an infinite number of possible realizations, but the two major ones are (1) realizing that reality is NOT what was imagined (seeing that it's a unified whole), and (2) realizing that who one is is NOT what was imagined (seeing that the "me" and conventional self identity as a SVP was an illusion). As Reefs noted, we assume that in the Zen tradition "kensho" reveals that reality is unified and infinite and "satori" is equivalent to what Ramana called "Self-realization" or what some of us like to call "THIS-realization." Interestingly, many people seem to discover #1, above, but do not discover #2. This seems to be the case for Rohr unless satori occurred after the video posted above was filmed. I can identify with Rohr because I wrote a newspaper column for ten years pointing to the same thing that Rohr points to, but still hadn't discovered that there was no "me" who apprehended the Infinite. I remember Figs giving me lots of grief in the past because she couldn't understand how someone could apprehend the Infinite/oneness and not simultaneously see through the illusion of selfhood. All I could tell her is that that's what usually happens (particularly with Christian mystics), and there are hundreds of examples of this. It is extremely rare for someone to penetrate both issues simultaneously, but it does occasionally happen, and the Buddha may be the best example. He had a kensho event occur when he looked up and saw Venus in the morning sky, and he apparently got everything in one big blast.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2024 7:48:35 GMT -5
Sounds like he's talking about a still mind, mindfulness etc., i.e. what Lolly usually likes to talk about. In general, what I have noticed is that in yoga and other mystical traditions, you are usually not finding a reference for SR the way we define it here, i.e. SR = kensho + satori. What you usually find is only the kensho aspect of SR, but not the satori aspect of SR. And in non-duality, especially western non-duality, you usually only find the satori aspect of SR, but not the kensho aspect. Which is why I think yoga and non-duality are complementary. ETA: Here's the video for reference... Expressed that speculation about kensho but no SR as to Joe a few years back. He had a seminary guy who we got to know during RCIA. Saw seminary guy a few months later after he'd spent time with Franciscans, after he'd made Deacon. Kensho eyes! It's a thing! But you know all those different realizations that ZD writes about sometimes? I'm more ZD than ZD when it comes to considering insight, a matter of degree. I think that even mental enlightenment gets a bad rap. Not to say the traps you id about it aren't a thing, but still, even with the hard, discontinuous breaks of realization, there's still a relevant spectrum. I agree because each human is unique, and the range of experiences and realizations that might occur for any particular human are infinite. I can't remember the details, but somewhere I read that Rohr had a big kensho event when he was young (about ten if I remember correctly), and that's probably why he knows with certainty that THIS is unified and infinite and why he is able to explain how the NT teachings are pointers to non-duality. His most humorous line is "Christ was not Jesus's last name." He distinguishes between Jesus, the human who discovered his unity with THIS, and Christ as THIS, ITSELF. If SR had occurred, I don't think he would make a statement such as, "I'm not there yet." As long as there's a "me" thinking "I'm not there yet," there's no there there.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 7, 2024 14:58:26 GMT -5
OK. I finally found the video. It's on YouTube and is titled "What is contemplative prayer and why is it needed?" Just before the 3 minute mark he says that he has practiced contemplation all his life but hasn't yet "got there." He seems to be saying that he occasionally goes deep enough to reach a satisfyingly adequate unitive state, but thoughts and feelings pull him out of it. That's my general interpretation of what he's saying.
If that's the case after 35 years of contemplation, then I would like to ask him two questions: (1) Who is it that is practicing contemplation in order to "get there?" and (2) Is whatever happening here and now any less "there" than when one gets "there" in the future as a result of practice?
I like Richard a great deal, and I think his interpretation of what Jesus was pointing to in the NT is terrific, but if he hasn't yet realized that "there" is always here and now, he has something more to realize. He seems to be saying that he's at point A trying to get to a point B. For those who are interested, check it out.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 6, 2024 7:47:56 GMT -5
Based on what trans folks have told me, there's a 'relative' peace to be found in the medical surgeries and hormones, which could be taken as an indication of how unpleasant their experience is before. So I think it 'works' for some folks. But not others. And it's very drastic. And I believe it's born out of a fundamental misconception, that pretty much everyone in society has. Simply, that 'I' am a category. I am sure there is some peace attained for some butt it's never going to hit the actual mark is it. No matter what is done kant change how things actually are and were intended through the natural process. It's each to their own I dare say, many I believe would come to the earth plane to go through this soul searching type of thing on this level just like being gay does. There is nothing wrong with going against the grain and expressing one selves as one see's fit, but there is a foundation in place that can't be changed no matter how much one wishes or desires for it not to be. I wonder what makes a male want to be a female, it's not even some kind of non identified thing going on it's a deep mind set held within identity that wants to be turned on it's head. We can't even put it down to some spiritual awakening beyond the gender identity. From peeps that you have talked with that are trans have they come up with a reason for why they don't want to be the gender they were born with? When my wife taught 6th grade students, she had a girl in one class who always wore boy's clothes, cut her hair short, and carried a string of keys on her belt like a night watchman. Carol liked her and got to know her. The girl told Carol that from the earliest age she knew that although she was biologically born as a girl, she had felt like a male, and she couldn't wait until she was old enough to transition to being male via surgery or whatever else was required. Her mother had offered her $200 just to wear a dress one single time, but the girl had always refused and had no interest in anything "girlish." All of the kids in her class who had known her for many years accepted that she was a "he" in a girl's body. This was fifty years ago, and it was the first human that my wife had ever met who was what we now call "trans." Carol was convinced that although her student was biologically a girl, something in her genetic makeup prevented her from feeling female in any sense. I suspect that it's the same sort of biological phenomenon that makes people of the same sex attractive to one another rather than to members of the opposite sex. In the world of ballroom dance about half of all the male dancers are gay, and we've known many of them personally. They've all told us that they were attracted to men from the earliest age and never had any interest in, or attraction to, females, so culture does not seem to be a factor in those cases. We now know that homosexuality occurs in other animals, so this, too, indicates that something is biologically/genetically different in at least some percentage of people and animals attracted to the same sex. In some recent studies it appears that female humans are more gender fluid than males, so cultural attitudes probably play a part in those attitudes, and we know lesbians who have been married to men, but later divorced and gave up on male relationships because of either overt mistreatment/abuse or a failure to communicate with men who had "a feminine side" to their personality. I have no idea what the actual percentages are, but clearly some percentage of humans identify with a different gender than how they are born, and culture does not seem to be a factor in that group of people.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 5, 2024 6:41:50 GMT -5
I've enjoyed watching several of his videos, and IMO he's one of the best explainers of a ND Christian perspective. However, yesterday someone mentioned something from one of his videos that surprised me. In one of his YouTube videos Rohr apparently said something like, "I try to stay in presence, but I'm not always able to do so." I've been searching for that quote, but so far have been unable to find his actual words about this. If he actually said something like that, then he hasn't yet penetrated the illusion of the SVP. In every other way he seems extremely clear, but it's impossible to fall out of presence or cease being THIS and any sage worth his/her salt would know this. All apparent efforting is seen to be an illusion after one discovers the truth of one's being. This reported statement doesn't detract from his primary message, but it indicates that one further realization might result in what Zen people call "discovering the last word of Zen."
Out of curiosity does anyone here know which video contains his words regarding this issue?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 27, 2024 12:24:12 GMT -5
Those are excellent videos, and I plan to suggest to my Christian friends who're interested in ND to watch them.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 9, 2024 18:20:47 GMT -5
This might be true for some people, but not for others. Some of us know why we're here, what we have to do, and how to find answers to any questions that might arise. For people in this category the intellect is a servant rather than a master, and they trust a deeper level of intelligence to take care of everything from circulating blood in the body to making whatever needs to be done simple and obvious. The key to finding peace, freedom, and happiness is escaping the consensus paradigm and discovering that there is no "me" at the center of whatever is happening and that separation is the fundamental illusion. I disagree that you know the answers to those questions, or that you know better than I do, and even your current replies shows these to me. I accept your right to your opinions, and don't expect to change them, nor others'. I honestly believe that you might benefit from doubting your current beliefs, and obviously not adhering to mine, but by putting aside all your truths, and tapping your inner guidance from the pupil position. It is true that I expect you to ignore my suggestion, and I am okay with that. Tapping one's inner guidance is what many of us on this forum are always pointing to, so we're definitely in agreement about that. However, it goes a bit deeper than that because there is no "me" who can "tap into anything" or do anything. It's more like realizing that what one IS is the unified field of all being which is always doing whatever is done. The issue is how to stop imagining separateness so that the organism can respond to whatever's happening spontaneously and effortlessly. The problem for most people is that they think they're separate things living in a world composed of separate things who need to control or direct what's happening, and that's the basic illusion that creates suffering.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 9, 2024 9:25:08 GMT -5
The guy was personable, and seemed to believe what he was preaching. But, likely, he is misguided ... on several levels, including health / lack-of-pain. But, this is our general situation: we don't know why we are here, we don't know what we have to do, we don't know how to find useful answers to those questions, and there are a lot of unbeneficial influences. The point of the video was that the human body is not built for a sedentary life style. So there's a much simpler explanation. And this is where your belief-based approach is misguided. This is also where a scientific, study-based approach is misguided (you can 'prove' either side of the argument with 'studies'). This isn't to say that beliefs do not play a role, they certainly do, but beliefs are only one piece of the puzzle. Also, you put too much trust into knowledge. The body has an intelligence of its own, and it's the same intelligence that created this universe. And left to itself, the body will guide your to the right behavior, it will tell you which way to sit right, which way to move, what to eat and when etc. etc. We don't need to know any of that on an intellectual or even conscious level, as the examples of children have shown in the video. So true!
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Post by zendancer on Mar 9, 2024 9:24:00 GMT -5
The guy was personable, and seemed to believe what he was preaching. But, likely, he is misguided ... on several levels, including health / lack-of-pain. But, this is our general situation: we don't know why we are here, we don't know what we have to do, we don't know how to find useful answers to those questions, and there are a lot of unbeneficial influences. This might be true for some people, but not for others. Some of us know why we're here, what we have to do, and how to find answers to any questions that might arise. For people in this category the intellect is a servant rather than a master, and they trust a deeper level of intelligence to take care of everything from circulating blood in the body to making whatever needs to be done simple and obvious. The key to finding peace, freedom, and happiness is escaping the consensus paradigm and discovering that there is no "me" at the center of whatever is happening and that separation is the fundamental illusion.
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Love
Mar 1, 2024 11:20:19 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Mar 1, 2024 11:20:19 GMT -5
Everything he wrote there seems on target to me. The kind of love E points to is what the Greeks called "agape" and is unconditional. Someone who loves another in that sense only wants the other to be happy, even if the other chooses to leave the relationship.
Byron Katie was once asked how she would feel if her husband became interested in someone else. Her response, in essence, was, "If he pulled away, there would be acceptance of that. I would not want him to stay with me if he wanted to be with someone else. I would still love him, but we would no longer be together. True love is wanting the best for each other whether together or apart." That's not an exact quote, but it coveys the sense of what she was pointing to.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 15, 2024 7:43:42 GMT -5
Yes, the hubris of humans is rather amazing. No one can explain how a single hair grows, yet people think AI can somehow replicate sentience. Too funny. If sentience, or consciousness, is mysterious, then how can you say anything beyond "I don't know" to the question of whether some entity is conscious or sentient? Do you "know" for sure that humans will never create a system that is ... like a human? I agree that some of the technical people seem oblivious and full of hubris. But is it also hubris to think you know for sure in the other direction? Ie, that it cannot happen? A particular realization makes this obvious. It happened to Federico Fa grin as he contemplated how to design a sentient computer, but it can happen as a result of contemplating many other existential questions. People look at two trees, but never realize that the space between the two trees is also what the trees ARE and is also what is looking at the trees. As Pope wrote, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring." The intelligence of THIS is incomprehensible to the intellect, but the intellect can be informed of that incomprehensibility by a realization of what lies beyond the capacity of the intellect.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 13, 2024 9:39:47 GMT -5
Recently I've been listening to some talks and interviews with Michael Mckibben (founder of Leader Technologies) whose view on A.I. pretty much dovetails with my own version which contradicts the officially promoted dystopian version of A.I. that is a threat to humanity and is going to replace humans. He basically says that there is no such thing as artificial intelligence. And all those issues with so-called A.I. that haven been envisioned dystopian movies are all solvable because they are nothing else but engineering problems. Another key point re A.I replacing humans is that A.I. is just mimicking the nervous system. Any thoughts? I remember Being with Ian Wolstenholme Barry Long and my friends wife gave birth to izza a bundle of joy and she said enough talk about stillness look after her. It was the first time I felt vulnerable yet I looked into her eyes and I could see all her cells were vulnerable alive.Her eyes were innocent like mine. A deep lake . There was this non verbal communication but it was so present alive. And i I felt her beyond all my teachings all the stillness I know Her heart is alive just like my heart. Yes, the hubris of humans is rather amazing. No one can explain how a single hair grows, yet people think AI can somehow replicate sentience. Too funny.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 12, 2024 19:15:49 GMT -5
Didn't write that. I can walk you through some stick-figure elements of a consciousness simulation, if you'd like. I'm sure today's labs have far more sophisticated models than what I'd write though. Yes, I jumped to an assumption about your meaning. My bad. You wrote: "People who blur the distinction between artificial and human intelligence miss something very important, no doubt." What is the "very important" thing that they miss? I assumed you were saying there was something special about the "human" intelligence that could not come from an "artificial" intelligence, and thus, AGI would not happen. You might find Federico Fa ggin's (I had to split his name due to this crazy website's obscenity filter) comments about this issue interesting ("consciousness is vaster than space and time"). His breakthrough realization occurred while contemplating the issue of how to create a sentient computer. If you google his name, I think the appropriate videos and comments will appear.
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