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Post by Damian3 on Jan 23, 2024 5:22:00 GMT -5
Hello,
On and off for the last few years when doing meditation I have been experience a fear during meditation.
This fear is now coming up alot more.
The fear is in response to a sense of loss of individual self in meditation.
There are 2 ways that his has happend.
1. Expansion - There is a sense of expansion of the body. With it by body feels like it starts to disappear. Sometimes it my whole body at expanding. Sometimes it starts with my hands feeling like they are expanding. There is a certain kinda of lightness to the experience.
2. Absorption - This is a feeling of body not expanding but it feelings thick and heavy. I cannot really describe it. But its marked by a loss of sense of self. When coming out of this it takes time and I feel kinda sluggish. But once I open my eyes I feel ok but it takes time.
Both these sensation come on strong and through no will power. Meaning I cannot consciously make it happen. And when the sensation (expansion or absorption) starts its very strong and quick. I have no control of it. When it starts within a few seconds I get scared and then the sensation stops.
I have been doing counting breathe meditation for a few years. Counting from 1 to 10 and holding my awareness at the navel.
More recently starting doing silent illumination.
I want to be able to let go when these sensations take over but I get scared.
I have been looking in books but havnt been able to find anything help.
Any advice. Thanks Damian
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park
Junior Member
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Post by park on Jan 23, 2024 8:06:44 GMT -5
Hi Damian,
Since you've been doing Silent Illumination, have you read any of the books by the Taiwanese Chan Master Sheng Yen?
If I remember correctly there is one book specifically focused on Silent Illumination and he goes into great detail describing the stages of the meditation, including the phenomena that you describe in your post. For Sheng Yen, what you describe is progress and a stage of the meditation, and not something to be afraid of.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 23, 2024 8:26:14 GMT -5
Hi Damian, Since you've been doing Silent Illumination, have you read any of the books by the Taiwanese Chan Master Sheng Yen? If I remember correctly there is one book specifically focused on Silent Illumination and he goes into great detail describing the stages of the meditation, including the phenomena that you describe in your post. For Sheng Yen, what you describe is progress and a stage of the meditation, and not something to be afraid of. Good point. I had a book by Shang Yen, but I read it so long ago that I've forgotten all of the stuff he wrote about. Yes, I do agree that what Damian wrote about is considered a "confirmatory experience" in various Zen traditions and indicates that meditation is affecting deeper levels of mind. |
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park
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by park on Jan 23, 2024 14:28:23 GMT -5
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Post by Damian3 on Jan 24, 2024 3:12:41 GMT -5
Hi Damian, Since you've been doing Silent Illumination, have you read any of the books by the Taiwanese Chan Master Sheng Yen? If I remember correctly there is one book specifically focused on Silent Illumination and he goes into great detail describing the stages of the meditation, including the phenomena that you describe in your post. For Sheng Yen, what you describe is progress and a stage of the meditation, and not something to be afraid of. HI Park, yes I have read it and I am re reading it now. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 24, 2024 9:23:17 GMT -5
Hello, On and off for the last few years when doing meditation I have been experience a fear during meditation. This fear is now coming up alot more. The fear is in response to a sense of loss of individual self in meditation. There are 2 ways that his has happend. 1. Expansion - There is a sense of expansion of the body. With it by body feels like it starts to disappear. Sometimes it my whole body at expanding. Sometimes it starts with my hands feeling like they are expanding. There is a certain kinda of lightness to the experience. 2. Absorption - This is a feeling of body not expanding but it feelings thick and heavy. I cannot really describe it. But its marked by a loss of sense of self. When coming out of this it takes time and I feel kinda sluggish. But once I open my eyes I feel ok but it takes time. Both these sensation come on strong and through no will power. Meaning I cannot consciously make it happen. And when the sensation (expansion or absorption) starts its very strong and quick. I have no control of it. When it starts within a few seconds I get scared and then the sensation stops. I have been doing counting breathe meditation for a few years. Counting from 1 to 10 and holding my awareness at the navel. More recently starting doing silent illumination. I want to be able to let go when these sensations take over but I get scared. I have been looking in books but havnt been able to find anything help. Any advice. Thanks Damian First, I'd have to say you have to know why you are meditating. What is meditation? Who or what is meditating? I'm going to stick my neck out. Is there fear in the midst of meditation? If you're doing it right, the answer is no. So when does the fear enter? It enters after the fact. In the midst of meditation, and fear there, can alternate, even quickly, light a light switched off and on, and off and on. Consider that, that should tell you a lot. The fear is coming a lot more, because your meditation is effective. You can come to know the nature of what ZD calls the illusory self. The illusory self is where the fear is coming from. You could almost say that fear is the glue that holds the illusory self together. I think I can find a video of what comes to mind. Fear IS the grip. Where does your sense of self arise from? Consider it practically. There is a central phenomenon which has the name identification. Are ~you~ your thoughts? Are ~you~ your feelings? There is freedom in the midst of meditation. ~We~ can make a choice, do we wish for freedom, or do we *need* the *thing* which keeps us from freedom. Fear is one of the strategies of the illusory self, that maintains the illusion. The strategies of the illusory self and endless, are tailored. But how can an illusion have such power? If you wish to consider this further, you can look at the Focus thread, How the con artist (the illusory self) almost always wins. Fear is strategy #3. Oh, too, the Sheng Yen book looks most excellent, very most excellent, wonderfully superbly very most excellent. |
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Post by Damian3 on Jan 24, 2024 16:35:02 GMT -5
Thanks Stardust this is helpful
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Post by andrew on Jan 24, 2024 17:12:37 GMT -5
I have no idea if this would work for you, or for anyone, but in that situation, I would use the Sedona Method.
It's not really the sensation of fear that's the problem (fear and joy are actually very similar in their quality), it's the resistance to the fear that is more the problem.
So I would gently interrupt the meditation at that point and ask myself these questions...
'Could I allow the fear to just be here?'
'Could I let it go?'
'Would I let it go?'
'When?'
You could do this a few times if the attachment is persistent (and/or if another feeling comes up).
This won't necessarily change the sensation, but will facilitate peace/space around it, thus perhaps enabling a different apparent/illusory 'level' of the meditation.
Again, I don't know if this would work, or if you would want to interrupt the meditation in that way, it's just what I would try in that situation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 21:24:55 GMT -5
Hello, On and off for the last few years when doing meditation I have been experience a fear during meditation. This fear is now coming up alot more. The fear is in response to a sense of loss of individual self in meditation. There are 2 ways that his has happend. 1. Expansion - There is a sense of expansion of the body. With it by body feels like it starts to disappear. Sometimes it my whole body at expanding. Sometimes it starts with my hands feeling like they are expanding. There is a certain kinda of lightness to the experience. 2. Absorption - This is a feeling of body not expanding but it feelings thick and heavy. I cannot really describe it. But its marked by a loss of sense of self. When coming out of this it takes time and I feel kinda sluggish. But once I open my eyes I feel ok but it takes time. Both these sensation come on strong and through no will power. Meaning I cannot consciously make it happen. And when the sensation (expansion or absorption) starts its very strong and quick. I have no control of it. When it starts within a few seconds I get scared and then the sensation stops. I have been doing counting breathe meditation for a few years. Counting from 1 to 10 and holding my awareness at the navel. More recently starting doing silent illumination. I want to be able to let go when these sensations take over but I get scared. I have been looking in books but havnt been able to find anything help. Any advice. Thanks Damian You are losing the sense of personal limited self but gaining the recognition of expanded unlimited universal Self. There is a fear of losing that which you identify with which is the personal self. You are caught in the middle ground of losing personal self but gaining universal Self and in that middle area this is where the fear arises. Going further towards the essence of what you really are which is the true Self brings with it Bliss not fear because there is the knowledge you are going home to what you really are. There will be no extinction but your sense of fear tells you otherwise. You need to cultivate the confidence within yourself that there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain. This is where traditional spiritual texts can be helpful. I would suggest you read the Ashtavakra Gita which is readily available online. These powerful pointers will help to build confidence that there is really nothing to fear. In practical terms I would suggest that when you experience these sensations of fear, direct feelings of love and devotion towards your own self. Treat your own self as something sacred and immortal. It's okay to think this through and talk to yourself while experiencing this fear as if you are guiding yourself through some temporary obstacle. But it is temporary and it can be overcome. And the rewards will be immense. |
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Post by Damian3 on Jan 28, 2024 21:35:37 GMT -5
Hello, On and off for the last few years when doing meditation I have been experience a fear during meditation. This fear is now coming up alot more. The fear is in response to a sense of loss of individual self in meditation. There are 2 ways that his has happend. 1. Expansion - There is a sense of expansion of the body. With it by body feels like it starts to disappear. Sometimes it my whole body at expanding. Sometimes it starts with my hands feeling like they are expanding. There is a certain kinda of lightness to the experience. 2. Absorption - This is a feeling of body not expanding but it feelings thick and heavy. I cannot really describe it. But its marked by a loss of sense of self. When coming out of this it takes time and I feel kinda sluggish. But once I open my eyes I feel ok but it takes time. Both these sensation come on strong and through no will power. Meaning I cannot consciously make it happen. And when the sensation (expansion or absorption) starts its very strong and quick. I have no control of it. When it starts within a few seconds I get scared and then the sensation stops. I have been doing counting breathe meditation for a few years. Counting from 1 to 10 and holding my awareness at the navel. More recently starting doing silent illumination. I want to be able to let go when these sensations take over but I get scared. I have been looking in books but havnt been able to find anything help. Any advice. Thanks Damian You are losing the sense of personal limited self but gaining the recognition of expanded unlimited universal Self. There is a fear of losing that which you identify with which is the personal self. You are caught in the middle ground of losing personal self but gaining universal Self and in that middle area this is where the fear arises. Going further towards the essence of what you really are which is the true Self brings with it Bliss not fear because there is the knowledge you are going home to what you really are. There will be no extinction but your sense of fear tells you otherwise. You need to cultivate the confidence within yourself that there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain. This is where traditional spiritual texts can be helpful. I would suggest you read the Ashtavakra Gita which is readily available online. These powerful pointers will help to build confidence that there is really nothing to fear. In practical terms I would suggest that when you experience these sensations of fear, direct feelings of love and devotion towards your own self. Treat your own self as something sacred and immortal. It's okay to think this through and talk to yourself while experiencing this fear as if you are guiding yourself through some temporary obstacle. But it is temporary and it can be overcome. And the rewards will be immense. |
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Post by Damian3 on Jan 28, 2024 21:36:05 GMT -5
You are losing the sense of personal limited self but gaining the recognition of expanded unlimited universal Self. There is a fear of losing that which you identify with which is the personal self. You are caught in the middle ground of losing personal self but gaining universal Self and in that middle area this is where the fear arises. Going further towards the essence of what you really are which is the true Self brings with it Bliss not fear because there is the knowledge you are going home to what you really are. There will be no extinction but your sense of fear tells you otherwise. You need to cultivate the confidence within yourself that there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain. This is where traditional spiritual texts can be helpful. I would suggest you read the Ashtavakra Gita which is readily available online. These powerful pointers will help to build confidence that there is really nothing to fear. In practical terms I would suggest that when you experience these sensations of fear, direct feelings of love and devotion towards your own self. Treat your own self as something sacred and immortal. It's okay to think this through and talk to yourself while experiencing this fear as if you are guiding yourself through some temporary obstacle. But it is temporary and it can be overcome. And the rewards will be immense. |
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Post by lolly on Jan 31, 2024 3:40:02 GMT -5
I'm with Andrew. I'd probably be a little different, but what he said is close enough and maybe better.
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Post by Peter on Jan 31, 2024 4:53:18 GMT -5
On and off for the last few years when doing meditation I have been experience a fear during meditation. This fear is now coming up alot more. The fear is in response to a sense of loss of individual self in meditation. Yeah, that's the edge right there, that's super interesting. I've let go of a lot of ideas over the years - let go of my identity as a Man, as a Scot, my Family name, ideas of Success, Being Good, Intelligence, but that 'me' is a tough one. What would be left if I stopped being me? Would something else come in and be 'me' instead? I feel like I don't have a fear of death, because in some way I'm confident that I'd still exist. But to not be me? That's True Death. I've hit that fear also, sitting on my stool, and wasn't able to let go of self. My sense was that Enlightenment was on the other side of it, but I wasn't ready to stop being me. I haven't had that fear for many years though...I'm thinking about why that might be... I think perhaps I've got more of a feeling of being personally welcomed by 'something' in my meditation these days. Would it be helpful to look for a flavour of personal connection, even if just briefly, earlier on in your meditation? Perhaps a sense of unfolding into a wider you? |
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