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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 17, 2023 12:14:37 GMT -5
I was eleven in 6th grade when JFK was assassinated. Mrs. Lemmond stood before the class and announced, our President has been shot, I can see her in my mind, I can hear her voice, the memory is seared in my mind. Most others here will at least recall 9-11. I was making some corrections at a house for an inspector, alone. I got in my truck, the radio was always on, as I drove to the end of the gravel drive I knew something serious was up, and shortly heard one of the Twin Towers had been hit. Pulling up at our shop about ten minutes later, to pick up my helper, there was a caller commenting, no, you don't understand, a second plane has hit the second tower!!. We were to head to wire a detached garage, but I went to my parents house about 2 miles away. We went in, they had the TV on, watching. I was torn by wanting to watch, and going to the job. And then the second tower hit, collapsed. I knew then it was only a matter of time before the other tower fell. We went to the job, worked with the news on the radio, finished by about 2:30. Normally we would have gone to another job, a house we were wiring, but I told Bob we were just going in, calling it a day.
These are two examples of accidental shocks.
We have four functions, sensing, actions-bodily doing, emotions/feelings and thinking. We can have the functions without consciousness, and we can have consciousness without the functions. Functions without consciousness is called operating completely on autopilot. I've tried to make the distinction between consciousness and functions previously here, giving it another go. We can operate from one center, or two, or three, or all four (there is a fifth separate function, but we can leave it for ordinary discussion, sexual function).
I'm going to tie two things together here which I've never done before. It's for you to examine, experiment with. No amount of thinking about the following will bring you to any conclusions, you have to experiment and observe. I will give a beginning hint. In school, how many times did you hear the teacher say, Pay attention!, or, Students, pay attention!, or Ralph, pay attention!?
Our minds work in a certain physiological atmosphere. A shock in life brings *all hands on deck*. Our attention is immediately focused on events and our reaction to events or people. An accidental shock like those described, bring focused attention to the present moment. An accidental shock releases hormones and neurotransmitters, immediately. And these cause permanent tracks in memory. So I remember those few minutes November 22, 1963, because it was a shock. Same for 9-11-2001. We have other accidental shocks in life, your first _______, your first ____, your first ____, many others. But an accidental shock is haphazard, can't be counted on.
To shift gears a little. Do you remember your dreams? What does it take to remember a dream? Experiment. I had a class on dreams in the '70's, we had to keep a dream journal. But most dreams vanish when you wake from sleep. You can remember for a few seconds, then they can just vanish, unless.... So what's necessary to remember a dream?
Can you remember what you ate for breakfast 2 days ago, or 4 days ago, or a week ago? Can you remember the best meal you ever ate in your life? I can. It was a later-night dinner after a day of SCUBA diving at a shipwreck off the NC coast, stuffed flounder, 1973. In most of the instances of our life, our attention is-not-focused. So during these events no track is left as memory. When we operate on autopilot, we don't need focused attention.
So now you have a test for being-conscious versus operating merely through the functions, and therefore mostly on autopilot. When you're conscious, it leaves an indelible track in memory. Now, are the memories important? Mostly not, that's not the point, unless you are studying for a test, or are learning a new skill, or are in love. (I can remember my Spanish teacher, also, 3 words, not 2, and the intensity in her voice, and the expression on her face).
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Post by inavalan on Dec 17, 2023 14:08:40 GMT -5
You made some observations, reflected on them. How is the result relevant to you?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2023 15:56:23 GMT -5
I was eleven in 6th grade when JFK was assassinated. Mrs. Lemmond stood before the class and announced, our President has been shot, I can see her in my mind, I can hear her voice, the memory is seared in my mind. Most others here will at least recall 9-11. I was making some corrections at a house for an inspector, alone. I got in my truck, the radio was always on, as I drove to the end of the gravel drive I knew something serious was up, and shortly heard one of the Twin Towers had been hit. Pulling up at our shop about ten minutes later, to pick up my helper, there was a caller commenting, no, you don't understand, a second plane has hit the second tower!!. We were to head to wire a detached garage, but I went to my parents house about 2 miles away. We went in, they had the TV on, watching. I was torn by wanting to watch, and going to the job. And then the second tower hit, collapsed. I knew then it was only a matter of time before the other tower fell. We went to the job, worked with the news on the radio, finished by about 2:30. Normally we would have gone to another job, a house we were wiring, but I told Bob we were just going in, calling it a day. These are two examples of accidental shocks. We have four functions, sensing, actions-bodily doing, emotions/feelings and thinking. We can have the functions without consciousness, and we can have consciousness without the functions. Functions without consciousness is called operating completely on autopilot. I've tried to make the distinction between consciousness and functions previously here, giving it another go. We can operate from one center, or two, or three, or all four (there is a fifth separate function, but we can leave it for ordinary discussion, sexual function). I'm going to tie two things together here which I've never done before. It's for you to examine, experiment with. No amount of thinking about the following will bring you to any conclusions, you have to experiment and observe. I will give a beginning hint. In school, how many times did you hear the teacher say, Pay attention!, or, Students, pay attention!, or Ralph, pay attention!? Our minds work in a certain physiological atmosphere. A shock in life brings *all hands on deck*. Our attention is immediately focused on events and our reaction to events or people. An accidental shock like those described, bring focused attention to the present moment. An accidental shock releases hormones and neurotransmitters, immediately. And these cause permanent tracks in memory. So I remember those few minutes November 22, 1963, because it was a shock. Same for 9-11-2001. We have other accidental shocks in life, your first _______, your first ____, your first ____, many others. But an accidental shock is haphazard, can't be counted on. To shift gears a little. Do you remember your dreams? What does it take to remember a dream? Experiment. I had a class on dreams in the '70's, we had to keep a dream journal. But most dreams vanish when you wake from sleep. You can remember for a few seconds, then they can just vanish, unless.... So what's necessary to remember a dream? Can you remember what you ate for breakfast 2 days ago, or 4 days ago, or a week ago? Can you remember the best meal you ever ate in your life? I can. It was a later-night dinner after a day of SCUBA diving at a shipwreck off the NC coast, stuffed flounder, 1973. In most of the instances of our life, our attention is-not-focused. So during these events no track is left as memory. When we operate on autopilot, we don't need focused attention. So now you have a test for being- conscious versus operating merely through the functions, and therefore mostly on autopilot. When you're conscious, it leaves an indelible track in memory. Now, are the memories important? Mostly not, that's not the point, unless you are studying for a test, or are learning a new skill, or are in love. (I can remember my Spanish teacher, also, 3 words, not 2, and the intensity in her voice, and the expression on her face). For anyone interested in the topic of this thread, there might be interest in reading about Jill Price. She was the first person discovered to have hyperthymesia--an ability to remember every single detail of every single day. After the discovery of Ms. Price's ability, about sixty other people have been discovered who have the same condition. Although Ms. Price can remember everything, she's not particularly happy about it because she's unable to forget anything. She said, "it's annoying and frustrating because if I see a date, I immediately remember everything that happened on that particular date." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 17, 2023 16:11:38 GMT -5
You made some observations, reflected on them. How is the result relevant to you? If it wasn't relevant I wouldn't have written it. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 17, 2023 17:58:53 GMT -5
You made some observations, reflected on them. How is the result relevant to you? If it wasn't relevant I wouldn't have written it. From what you wrote, it doesn't seem that your reflections on your observations led to anything relevant to you. That's why I asked " how". I disagree with your interpretations, from my perspective, but that wasn't my point. It isn't/ wasn't a challenge to your idea, just curious of why you chose to post that. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 17, 2023 19:44:08 GMT -5
If it wasn't relevant I wouldn't have written it. From what you wrote, it doesn't seem that your reflections on your observations led to anything relevant to you. That's why I asked " how". I disagree with your interpretations, from my perspective, but that wasn't my point. It isn't/ wasn't a challenge to your idea, just curious of why you chose to post that. It's one of my > things< (which I come back to). This OP adds a little, the proof. IOW, with a little time, experiment, observation and examination, you can validate. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 17, 2023 20:40:06 GMT -5
From what you wrote, it doesn't seem that your reflections on your observations led to anything relevant to you. That's why I asked " how". I disagree with your interpretations, from my perspective, but that wasn't my point. It isn't/ wasn't a challenge to your idea, just curious of why you chose to post that. It's one of my > things< (which I come back to). This OP adds a little, the proof. IOW, with a little time, experiment, observation and examination, you can validate. I understand. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 20:42:56 GMT -5
From what you wrote, it doesn't seem that your reflections on your observations led to anything relevant to you. That's why I asked " how". I disagree with your interpretations, from my perspective, but that wasn't my point. It isn't/ wasn't a challenge to your idea, just curious of why you chose to post that. It's one of my > things< (which I come back to). This OP adds a little, the proof. IOW, with a little time, experiment, observation and examination, you can validate. What's your point other than observing that we carry out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This is normal functioning otherwise our minds would be overwhelmed by the minutiae of everything we do. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 18, 2023 8:02:33 GMT -5
It's one of my > things< (which I come back to). This OP adds a little, the proof. IOW, with a little time, experiment, observation and examination, you can validate. What's your point other than observing that we carry out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This is normal functioning otherwise our minds would be overwhelmed by the minutiae of everything we do. Exactly, as Jill Price and other people with hyperthymesia have discovered. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 18, 2023 8:23:22 GMT -5
It's one of my > things< (which I come back to). This OP adds a little, the proof. IOW, with a little time, experiment, observation and examination, you can validate. What's your point other than observing that we carry out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This is normal functioning otherwise our minds would be overwhelmed by the minutiae of everything we do. I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 8:37:52 GMT -5
What's your point other than observing that we carry out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This is normal functioning otherwise our minds would be overwhelmed by the minutiae of everything we do. I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. We are always aware otherwise we couldn't carry out any tasks. So what do you want to be aware of? Do you want to be aware of being aware or do you want to be aware of a task that was previously unconscious but you want to make it conscious. They are two different things. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 18, 2023 10:50:09 GMT -5
I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. We are always aware otherwise we couldn't carry out any tasks. So what do you want to be aware of? Do you want to be aware of being aware or do you want to be aware of a task that was previously unconscious but you want to make it conscious. They are two different things. While cleaning bird cages I do both. It's almost as if the bird cages are being cleaned on their own. It's amazing what the body can do without direction or hindrance. Things that seem complex to this mind get resolved without advice from the head. It's also strangely satisfying. Effortless effort. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 18, 2023 13:14:18 GMT -5
I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. . So what do you want to be aware of? Do you want to be aware of being aware or do you want to be aware of a task that was previously unconscious but you want to make it conscious. They are two different things. is not completely true, as the OP is getting at and as zazeniac understands. The [OP] question basically is, do you know to what extend you operate merely through the functions? ZD is clear, we virtually don't need the abstracting mind (for him anyway). That leaves emotions/feelings (the "good" emotions are mostly *organic* [installed at the ~factory~], the *nasty* ones are learned-copied, basically useless, worse than useless), bodily-actions, and sensations, they are also *factory installed*. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 18, 2023 16:57:33 GMT -5
What's your point other than observing that we carry out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This is normal functioning otherwise our minds would be overwhelmed by the minutiae of everything we do. I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. The conception of ‘ordinary’ is somewhat arbitrary, but I’ll give it a shot. So, ordinarily, the first 2-3+ times a certain task is done (e.g., cleaning a bird cage), there’s a decent bit of conscious effort and abstraction involved while learning the new context. Each time, certain actions/reasoning/assumptions ‘transfer’ to an automated ability, freeing up conscious attention for the ‘better’ or the more efficient. After the Nth or so time, one can slip into flow and do it practically, even artfully, without effort. Zen gardens are often found at a zendo for several reasons, and the acts involved can become very pleasing in themselves, sometimes to the level of an art form. Flow states are like that, miraculous even. To observe them and/or the outcomes can inspire to the depths of perception. Translations of Chaung-Tzu’s The Dexterous Butcher might further exemplify the principle. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 18, 2023 18:19:55 GMT -5
I'm interested in superseding this normal functioning. You can be aware while carrying out a lot of tasks unconsciously. This should be right down your alley. It's not about thinking, it's not about memory. The conception of ‘ordinary’ is somewhat arbitrary, but I’ll give it a shot. So, ordinarily, the first 2-3+ times a certain task is done (e.g., cleaning a bird cage), there’s a decent bit of conscious effort and abstraction involved while learning the new context. Each time, certain actions/reasoning/assumptions ‘transfer’ to an automated ability, freeing up conscious attention for the ‘better’ or the more efficient. After the Nth or so time, one can slip into flow and do it practically, even artfully, without effort. Zen gardens are often found at a zendo for several reasons, and the acts involved can become very pleasing in themselves, sometimes to the level of an art form. Flow states are like that, miraculous even. To observe them and/or the outcomes can inspire to the depths of perception. Translations of Chaung-Tzu’s The Dexterous Butcher might further exemplify the principle. ! From the 1st translation: - "Nowadays I no longer see it with the eye; I merely apprehend it with the soul. My sense-organs are in abeyance, but my soul still works."
I guess you agree with the king's conclusion: - “Excellent,” said the king of Wei. “This interview with the carver Ting has taught me how man’s vital forces can be conserved.”
I think that the butcher described something different: getting into the optimum state of consciousness for the task at hand. Also, the purpose is not to conserve vital forces: but to do the task better by adjusting the focus of your awareness. Your sense-organs anchor your awareness' reference into the physical-reality. By putting them in abeyance (quiescence, suspension), your awareness detaches, frees itself from that reference, which allows your inner perceptions ( soul) to take over. You can achieve that optimum state through practice and luck after a long time, but you can also achieve that much faster working directly with your subconscious. |
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