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Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:45:49 GMT -5
I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you. Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience? It really is difficult to say in a way . I mean, if you realise that there is life after physical death and a loved one passes over, then you still grieve for them even though you know that they haven't died so to speak . You can't however take back what one has realised . So there is an accumulation of knowings and realisations that are integrated into your perception of life itself . Life itself in reflection of what you are . Knowing that all is what you are and what constitutes a mindful self and not are integrated into oneself . Does one still chop wood thereafter, of course, but the underlying knowings has a part to play in ones overall understandings . Like said, on a practical level, knowing what constitutes a mindful self and what doesn't won't change normal life and day to day activities, it's more to do with an understanding of what you are .. Knowing that everything is what you are has more of an impact I would say in regards to deliberately causing harm to others for example, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't defend themselves if need be . There are so many scenarios at play here I would say . I mean you hear of all these masters that seemingly know all that is and write books on it all, but still behave in a similar fashion at times prior to all those realisations . I appreciate the question, as I had to try and put it into words which was a journey for me in itself . I agree. Trying to explain the value of knowing what you are is difficult using language. One has to discover the truth for oneself to fully appreciate the wonder of it and the simplicity of it. Afterwards, one doesn't cease to be human, but it certainly changes one's understanding of "the Big Picture" and one's way of life. Ted Henry asked me about this during an interview in February, and how I responded has now been posted on his YouTube channel "Souljourns." I think Tyler Mattthew and Norio Kushi also responded in their own way to this same issue during interviews he had with them for Souljourns.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:46:23 GMT -5
From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? I understand what you are saying .. and it was kinda difficult explaining my take on it to Andy . Awareness of oneself in a way brings peace in relation to what was realised . I mean if one was a devoted seeker of finding self and realised that (for use of a better word) then the search is over . If one had an alien come visit then that would dissolve the thought if life exists elsewhere, but it doesn't really have an impact on day to day life in some respects . How would those resolvements reflect in one going to do the weekly shop or wash the dishes, simply cos one knows that life exists on Mars or that self awareness is mindful . Exactly.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:56:52 GMT -5
From my POV, it's the same contextless context. A blood cell intelligently goes wherever it needs to go to fulfill whatever function it must fulfill. A human is exactly like that. The only difference is that THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can simulate reality in the form of images, ideas, and symbols, and can imagine that it is separate from all else. What is it that causes thoughts to arise in the mind? What is it that sees or hears? What is it that directs attention to one thing or another? What is it that drives a car when attention is focused on some conversation from last week? What is it that moves a blood cell wherever it needs to go or digests food? Call it "Source," or "the Unborn," or "What We Are," but THAT is the only doer of whatever is done. Can it be seen that either imagining a context, or imagining more than one context, are both acts of imagination? What we are is unimaginable and beyond the idea of context because what we are is an undivided whole. As there is only what you are then the answer is that . It has to be . Within Individual experience, that what you are is localised to that point of perception . That point of perception that can think . That point of perception that can drive or ride a bike or surf the waves like the princess . Andy and I have spoken about percentages of being focused on something, like driving, but the quandary is that when there has seemingly been an absence of awareness when driving the car it's because there was no immediate memory of it . It doesn't mean to say that on a different level there was . It is like waking up after a nights sleep believing that one has been absent of awareness for 8 hrs . It's simply not true . One is always consciously aware and that includes driving a car not remembering doing that . When I have that experience of not knowing how I drove 10 miles, I don't recall having a memory of being somewhere else or having lots of thoughts running through my mind, enough so to totally blank out my perception of the road . Andy and I were talking about percentages, so that would mean that one was 100% thinking of what one was going to eat for dinner and have no awareness of anything else . Yes, no conscious awareness. I ascribe the ability to safely drive while thinking about something else to be a function of subconscious mental processing. What we are can obviously do a million different things at the same time, and to know that that's the case one only has to consider the millions, billions, or trillions of things that are happening each moment that sustain life in the form of a single human being. I'm sure that everyone has had occasions when they were driving along thinking about some issue and suddenly what we are brought attention back to conscious awareness of what was happening due to a potentially dangerous situation. What we are is clearly aware of everything happening that might result in a vehicle collision even when the intellect is ruminating about something one is planning for the future. That's what brings back conscious attention to the highway and what the cars and trucks are doing around us.
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Post by inavalan on Apr 23, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -5
There are so many different, many even opposing opinions about almost everything. It isn't that I dismiss them. I don't care about most of them. Surely, I believe that many are incorrect, but in most cases I have no motivation to argue their (in)validity. .. well you said to me about transcending mind that is my opinion, and you doubt its validity . You believe many opinions are incorrect, so what would constitute a correct opinion bearing in mind everything is based upon a subjective experience? This is why I asked you about the validity of experiencing logging on to the forums or going to the fridge for a beer. So what constitutes a true - real - correct opinion?What's it based on? This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere. I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences. Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible. I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were. I just play the game with what I have.
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Post by inavalan on Apr 23, 2023 15:25:44 GMT -5
I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...? It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. This is why these discussions lead nowhere. Because people understand whatever they can, and believe to be true. Our exchange wasn't about "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", but about your opinion that what you are doing leads to "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", opinion that I contest. From your posts, and from the perspective of my beliefs, your "understanding that pertains to what you are" is way off. I also stated, and repeat it, that I don't intend to convince you of anything. I just interjected that as you have your perspective, everybody has their own, and you have no way to prove that yours is right. You seem to believe that you know and experienced things that are absolutely right / real / ... I'm saying that you're wrong about that.
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Post by andrew on Apr 24, 2023 12:14:17 GMT -5
I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you. Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience? It really is difficult to say in a way . I mean, if you realise that there is life after physical death and a loved one passes over, then you still grieve for them even though you know that they haven't died so to speak . You can't however take back what one has realised . So there is an accumulation of knowings and realisations that are integrated into your perception of life itself . Life itself in reflection of what you are . Knowing that all is what you are and what constitutes a mindful self and not are integrated into oneself . Does one still chop wood thereafter, of course, but the underlying knowings has a part to play in ones overall understandings . Like said, on a practical level, knowing what constitutes a mindful self and what doesn't won't change normal life and day to day activities, it's more to do with an understanding of what you are .. Knowing that everythin g is what you are has more of an impact I would say in regards to deliberately causing harm to others for example, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't defend themselves if need be .
There are so many scenarios at play here I would say . I mean you hear of all these masters that seemingly know all that is and write books on it all, but still behave in a similar fashion at times prior to all those realisations . I appreciate the question, as I had to try and put it into words which was a journey for me in itself . Yes, that's a good example of what I was asking, thanks. It indicates that there's something about the way you experience individuals, or relationships (or just life in general) that has changed, but as I asked it, I was aware that it was a bit of tricky one to answer, glad you appreciated it
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Post by andrew on Apr 24, 2023 12:16:38 GMT -5
It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening . It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? Also a good answer to the question I asked, thanks. To be clear, I don't mean 'good' in the sense that I believe you gave a 'right' answer, but good in the sense that you articulated the value of the comparison clearly to me.
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Post by tenka on Apr 26, 2023 14:30:22 GMT -5
As there is only what you are then the answer is that . It has to be . Within Individual experience, that what you are is localised to that point of perception . That point of perception that can think . That point of perception that can drive or ride a bike or surf the waves like the princess . Andy and I have spoken about percentages of being focused on something, like driving, but the quandary is that when there has seemingly been an absence of awareness when driving the car it's because there was no immediate memory of it . It doesn't mean to say that on a different level there was . It is like waking up after a nights sleep believing that one has been absent of awareness for 8 hrs . It's simply not true . One is always consciously aware and that includes driving a car not remembering doing that . When I have that experience of not knowing how I drove 10 miles, I don't recall having a memory of being somewhere else or having lots of thoughts running through my mind, enough so to totally blank out my perception of the road . Andy and I were talking about percentages, so that would mean that one was 100% thinking of what one was going to eat for dinner and have no awareness of anything else . Yes, no conscious awareness. I ascribe the ability to safely drive while thinking about something else to be a function of subconscious mental processing. What we are can obviously do a million different things at the same time, and to know that that's the case one only has to consider the millions, billions, or trillions of things that are happening each moment that sustain life in the form of a single human being. I'm sure that everyone has had occasions when they were driving along thinking about some issue and suddenly what we are brought attention back to conscious awareness of what was happening due to a potentially dangerous situation. What we are is clearly aware of everything happening that might result in a vehicle collision even when the intellect is ruminating about something one is planning for the future. That's what brings back conscious attention to the highway and what the cars and trucks are doing around us. Well this is the sticky point, because most would feel there was no conscious awareness had during sleep time . There always is . Not remembering doesn't equate to no conscious awareness had . It just one doesn't remember being conscious lol . When one is in a different zone so to speak then I would say one's awareness expands somewhat and one can do a manner of all things at the same time .There has probably been many peeps not paying attention to the road ahead and hit someone from behind . So it really does depend on the actual state of awareness that one enters. That state of awareness can activate many abilities I would say .
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Post by tenka on Apr 26, 2023 14:39:40 GMT -5
It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. This is why these discussions lead nowhere. Because people understand whatever they can, and believe to be true. Our exchange wasn't about "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", but about your opinion that what you are doing leads to "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", opinion that I contest. From your posts, and from the perspective of my beliefs, your "understanding that pertains to what you are" is way off. I also stated, and repeat it, that I don't intend to convince you of anything. I just interjected that as you have your perspective, everybody has their own, and you have no way to prove that yours is right. You seem to believe that you know and experienced things that are absolutely right / real / ... I'm saying that you're wrong about that.You're saying I am wrong and yet you say all there is, is a subjective opinion . Well that's just you're subjective opinion based upon no experience of what I'm talking about . How could I prove something to you that you haven't experienced for yourself? I have told you I don't talk in absolute Truths . I haven't been trying to prove anything to you . I spoke about what certain understandings bring to the table . I have asked you do you see any value in having such understandings . You said it means nothing to you . It kinda emphasises the point I am making .
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Post by tenka on Apr 26, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5
.. well you said to me about transcending mind that is my opinion, and you doubt its validity . You believe many opinions are incorrect, so what would constitute a correct opinion bearing in mind everything is based upon a subjective experience? This is why I asked you about the validity of experiencing logging on to the forums or going to the fridge for a beer. So what constitutes a true - real - correct opinion?What's it based on? This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere. I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences. Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible. I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were. I just play the game with what I have. Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another . You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another . Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe . If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that . Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .
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Post by inavalan on Apr 26, 2023 15:05:04 GMT -5
This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere. I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences. Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible. I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were. I just play the game with what I have. Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another . You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another . Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe . If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that . Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything . This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat.
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Post by tenka on Apr 28, 2023 14:01:31 GMT -5
Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another . You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another . Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe . If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that . Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything . This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. Well it does lead somewhere, it's just that you are not interested in looking at how foundations work . The very same foundations that are at the root of what you believe and what you don't . If you understood this, then you wouldn't be saying what you are saying, but that's up to you . It's easy to point the finger at someone and say they are wrong, but a little harder to look at oneself in reflection of what is countered .
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Post by inavalan on Apr 28, 2023 16:25:41 GMT -5
This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. Well it does lead somewhere, it's just that you are not interested in looking at how foundations work . The very same foundations that are at the root of what you believe and what you don't . If you understood this, then you wouldn't be saying what you are saying, but that's up to you . It's easy to point the finger at someone and say they are wrong, but a little harder to look at oneself in reflection of what is countered . My position is that what we discuss here can't be argued. You present your view, I present mine. We may ask and answer honest questions, understand or not the other's view, and that's about it. My view, and probably yours too, isn't based on a rationalization of some data, but on my inner experiences. Hence, no external argument can change it. Discussions may trigger questions in my mind that I then ask my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Those aren't even questions you might ask, but questions that arise from my same inner-source. You tried to have an argument, prove me wrong, make me reflect on what you say. I'm not available for such a conversation. Not interested. " How foundations work"? To me that question makes no sense, and I am not even interested what you mean by that at this stage of our exchange. I am beyond that. (I don't intend to offend you. I'm neutral). Surely I believe you're mistaken, but I have no intention to argue your view, nor my view. Truth can't be argued, can't be voted, can't be learned form another (in my opinion). This is what I meant by " This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. "
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Post by inavalan on Apr 29, 2023 2:32:38 GMT -5
I think that this is a deep Ramana quote:
Others:
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Post by lolly on Apr 29, 2023 6:13:59 GMT -5
This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere. I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences. Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible. I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were. I just play the game with what I have. Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another . You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another . Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe . If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that . Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything . Distorted with regards to what?
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