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Post by tenka on Jan 13, 2020 8:29:23 GMT -5
So when the experiencer returns the experiencer can then say what exactly? I AM pure awareness and not an illusory self peep? No. The experiencer can only say that for a certain period of time the sense of selfhood and everything else disappeared into a state of pure awareness. The only realization that I can relate to NS is the realization that such a state of pure awareness is possible. To say that 'The only realization that you can relate to NS is the realization that such a state of pure awareness is possible'. So what is the state of pure awareness in reflection of what you are? if you are in agreement that there is only what you are, then pure awareness must be that? To only realize that pure awareness IS after the event must equate to I AM realizing I AM pure awareness after the event . If a peep has no idea what pure awareness IS in relation to what they are then they must be completely confused . There is no confusion had when you realize what you are .. so something isn't quite right here is it . Peeps say there is no doubt had at all, and I would concur with this statement . This is why pure awareness is problematic when we are speaking of I AM being absent because pure awareness is a self reference isn't it . This is why I leave 'what we are' well alone in regards to making a statement of what that is . So what perhaps is the case here is that there is pure awareness absent of I AM that leaves the experiencer none the wiser of what has happened and pure awareness absent of I AM that leaves the experiencer knowing that I AM is that without any doubt . To me this is a bit odd to say the least but I haven't been left with confusion but maybe some peeps have? I am trying to envisage a dude after the event saying wtf was that and carry on with their life under some misguided sense of themselves ..
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Post by tenka on Jan 13, 2020 8:38:01 GMT -5
.. How many dudes do you know that entertain a state of S.S.? I mean what is ordinary life in relation to S.S.? When I am away from the hustle and bustle of a busy studio environment and I haven't got kid crisis's going on and when the car doesn't break down etc etc I am in a different state of mind .. When I am at home and I am able to run and meditate and do healing work again I am in a higher / finer state of mind so to speak . I used to have conversations with my mum about how much harder it is to Self realize in the west than it is in the east in regards to the known masters .. It was an interesting discussion and it depends on lots of aspects regarding what was concluded but I am certain that a dude that floats on by in a state of S.S. will have his wings clipped eventually when subjected to enormous amounts stress and trauma . S.S. is only experienced while the ocean is calm or moderately calm . We could even say that outbursts of anger at times for whatever reason is disrupting S.S. Perhaps it would be futile to debate these aspects, but in my mind there is either a state of S.S. or their isn't and maybe what that constitutes will be subjective as always . In the state referred to as "SS" it doesn't matter whether life is calm or frenetic; the state is continuous. Not even anger disrupts SS. More about this later. How many S.S dudes do you actually know? You see the very fact that anger would arise would in my eyes reflect a peep that wasn't in complete peace or in complete bliss as said before and it's not really worth going thru it all again tbh .. How many S.S. dudes do you know that work in a stressful environment or are being subjected to abuse and such likes?
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Post by tenka on Jan 13, 2020 8:42:24 GMT -5
Yes absolutely, this is why I keep saying I AM is absent while what you are is present . We all agree about this, but a few words need to be added to make the meaning of this a bit clearer. Agreeing with it is one thing, but one won't understand it unless what you are is realized . The problem as I see it most don't understand what 'I AM is absent while what you are is present' means or refers too at all otherwise they wouldn't be saying what they are saying ..
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 13, 2020 8:54:22 GMT -5
We all agree about this, but a few words need to be added to make the meaning of this a bit clearer. Agreeing with it is one thing, but one won't understand it unless what you are is realized . The problem as I see it most don't understand what 'I AM is absent while what you are is present' means or refers too at all otherwise they wouldn't be saying what they are saying .. As far as I can see you're the only one in this forum who understands that.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 8:55:31 GMT -5
No. The experiencer can only say that for a certain period of time the sense of selfhood and everything else disappeared into a state of pure awareness. The only realization that I can relate to NS is the realization that such a state of pure awareness is possible. To say that 'The only realization that you can relate to NS is the realization that such a state of pure awareness is possible'. So what is the state of pure awareness in reflection of what you are? if you are in agreement that there is only what you are, then pure awareness must be that? To only realize that pure awareness IS after the event must equate to I AM realizing I AM pure awareness after the event . If a peep has no idea what pure awareness IS in relation to what they are then they must be completely confused . There is no confusion had when you realize what you are .. so something isn't quite right here is it . Peeps say there is no doubt had at all, and I would concur with this statement . This is why pure awareness is problematic when we are speaking of I AM being absent because pure awareness is a self reference isn't it . This is why I leave 'what we are' well alone in regards to making a statement of what that is . So what perhaps is the case here is that there is pure awareness absent of I AM that leaves the experiencer none the wiser of what has happened and pure awareness absent of I AM that leaves the experiencer knowing that I AM is that without any doubt . To me this is a bit odd to say the least but I haven't been left with confusion but maybe some peeps are? I am trying to envisage a dude after the event saying wtf was that and carry on with their life under some misguided sense of themselves .. First, let's try to understand how we understand the meaning of various words. How would you define NS? You usually refer to NS as an "event" or "a realization" whereas I refer to it as "the experience of a state." Have you entered the state of NS more than once? If so, do you enter NS by sitting in meditation? If that's the case, what happens exactly? I'm just trying to understand if we're writing about the same thing when we use the phrase NS.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 8:59:07 GMT -5
In the state referred to as "SS" it doesn't matter whether life is calm or frenetic; the state is continuous. Not even anger disrupts SS. More about this later. How many S.S dudes do you actually know? You see the very fact that anger would arise would in my eyes reflect a peep that wasn't in complete peace or in complete bliss as said before and it's not really worth going thru it all again tbh .. How many S.S. dudes do you know that work in a stressful environment or are being subjected to abuse and such likes? I'm lucky because I personally know several people who have found the answers to all of their existential questions and most of them live in a state of SS. This includes people who work in what other people might call "stressful work environments." If I had to guess, I'd say that I personally know, or have met, at least eight people in that category.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 9:01:51 GMT -5
Satch: where's the quote?
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Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 9:23:41 GMT -5
Yup, but he refuses to apply it to his experience. That's what I was arguing with him about. Somehow he can be aware of the fact of his own absence -- without having been there in any way during the absence. Totally inconsistent with what he says otherwise. My deceased father a professor in dermatology and pathology use to check our attendance in class. But he stopped when my classmates who don't attend let others bring their tape recorders inside , place them on their vacant seats and do the listening when my father's lecturing. Their presence absent only their tape recorders placed on their empty seats were. Are you doing, like, a stream of consciousness thingy?
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 9:25:33 GMT -5
My deceased father a professor in dermatology and pathology use to check our attendance in class. But he stopped when my classmates who don't attend let others bring their tape recorders inside , place them on their vacant seats and do the listening when my father's lecturing. Their presence absent only their tape recorders placed on their empty seats were. Are you doing, like, a stream of consciousness thingy? That's why I said that K needs his own thread. His posts don't relate to whatever is being discussed in any way that I can see.
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Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 9:37:22 GMT -5
Yup, but he refuses to apply it to his experience. That's what I was arguing with him about. Somehow he can be aware of the fact of his own absence -- without having been there in any way during the absence. Totally inconsistent with what he says otherwise. I think he means that he concludes after the fact the difference between the two states. I know he's concluding after the fact but without a sense of existence what fact would there be to recall? It's like recalling what it was like while under anesthesia. Do you wake up and recall not having a sense of existence?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 9:40:42 GMT -5
I think he means that he concludes after the fact the difference between the two states. I know he's concluding after the fact but without a sense of existence what fact would there be to recall? It's like recalling what it was like while under anesthesia. Do you wake up and recall not having a sense of existence?All most people remember are the counted down numbers.. Four, Three, Tw.....
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Post by laughter on Jan 13, 2020 9:41:32 GMT -5
My deceased father a professor in dermatology and pathology use to check our attendance in class. But he stopped when my classmates who don't attend let others bring their tape recorders inside , place them on their vacant seats and do the listening when my father's lecturing. Their presence absent only their tape recorders placed on their empty seats were. Are you doing, like, a stream of consciousness thingy? It's a humorous metaphor for "be aware of the fact of his own absence -- without having been there in any way during the absence". I think what tenka means by " .. 'I AM is absent while what you are is present' .. " is what ZD calls nirvikalpa samadhi: pure awareness with no thought or sensation.
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Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 9:41:58 GMT -5
I think he means that he concludes after the fact the difference between the two states. The after the fact comparison would still rely on a memory, which would require, in Tenka’s parlance, a self-reference. The same point applies to why we don’t simply cease to exist in deep sleep. We know we slept — and that suggests a kind of very primitive self-reference. Yes
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 9:46:35 GMT -5
Agreeing with it is one thing, but one won't understand it unless what you are is realized . The problem as I see it most don't understand what 'I AM is absent while what you are is present' means or refers too at all otherwise they wouldn't be saying what they are saying .. As far as I can see you're the only one in this forum who understands that. It's quite lovely to see you two bonding.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 13, 2020 10:01:46 GMT -5
Nothing supersedes pure awareness as far as I know, but no one lives in a state of pure awareness more than a few hours, perhaps one or two days at the most, and subconscious mental functioning obviously continues because the body continues to live and breathe. Yes of course because the body couldn't function in such a state, but when there are thoughts, perceptions, feelings and emotions there is still pure awareness because they cannot be experienced without awareness. NS has nothing to do with SR because NS is not a realization, and it doesn't help us understand anything. What makes you think there is anything to understand about SR. If you are free from the bondage of action do you need to understand it? It MAY help trigger future realizations that will result in new understanding, but all we can say about it is that it's a deep state of mind. NS is like being unconscious but highly aware because the "outside world" does not exist for the organism abiding in that state. I believe that what you call realizations and understandings are merely mental constructs, mind states. What does one learn from abiding in NS? Nothing Only that such a deep state of mind is possible, that it's blissful, that it relaxes the body and probably loosens up the intellect, and that it seems to precede various subsequent realizations. I don't believe in realizations. I only believe in one realization which is Self realization. The only state of mind that really matters is SS because that state of mind can continue in the midst of ordinary life, and it manifests as peace, freedom, flow, and equanimity. It's like being at home, knowing you're at home, and knowing that home is the only place one can BE because it's the only place there IS. We could also call it "abiding in the Self, as Self" if we wanted to put it in spiritual terms. What you have described is Self realization which is just another name for sahaja samadhi.
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