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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 4:46:20 GMT -5
Nothing supersedes pure awareness as far as I know, but no one lives in a state of pure awareness more than a few hours, perhaps one or two days at the most, and subconscious mental functioning obviously continues because the body continues to live and breathe. NS has nothing to do with SR because NS is not a realization, and it doesn't help us understand anything. ... .. Well if nothing supersedes pure awareness and pure awareness is 'what you are' then this is realized the moment there is awareness of I AM present . Seeing thru illusions of the mind is what in comparison? Half way up the mountain compared to pure awareness that is at the mountains pinnacle? N.S. is a realization because one knows that 'they are that' which is beyond I AM . How can you say it doesn't help us understand anything, when one has the ultimate comparison had . Peeps that only shift self identities of the mind are not having the comparison of pure awareness are they, they are caught in a mind loop perceiving self in a million different way's, thinking this is not my true self and this is ..Yeah, until it's revealed that all the other selves are experienced in that 'pure empty awareness' the soul continues to reach out to those others.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:34:48 GMT -5
Nothing supersedes pure awareness as far as I know, but no one lives in a state of pure awareness more than a few hours, perhaps one or two days at the most, and subconscious mental functioning obviously continues because the body continues to live and breathe. NS has nothing to do with SR because NS is not a realization, and it doesn't help us understand anything. It MAY help trigger future realizations that will result in new understanding, but all we can say about it is that it's a deep state of mind. NS is like being unconscious but highly aware because the "outside world" does not exist for the organism abiding in that state. What does one learn from abiding in NS? Only that such a deep state of mind is possible, that it's blissful, that it relaxes the body and probably loosens up the intellect, and that it seems to precede various subsequent realizations. The only state of mind that really matters is SS because that state of mind can continue in the midst of ordinary life, and it manifests as peace, freedom, flow, and equanimity. It's like being at home, knowing you're at home, and knowing that home is the only place one can BE because it's the only place there IS. We could also call it "abiding in the Self, as Self" if we wanted to put it in spiritual terms. You think that NS has got nothing to do with SR because you think that SR is a woo woo experience which reveals relative truths about existence. That's clear enough because you talk about realizations in the plural, never about THE realization which is Self realization and which is beyond and prior to all concepts. It's not about understanding anything, it's about Being. We are always living in the state of pure awareness not just for one hour or one day. Your mind blowing satori stories have nothing to do with SR. Wow, did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Please stop jumping to conclusions about what other people are trying to communicate, put away your incredibly strong opinions for a few moments, show a little respect and humility, and try to grasp that you're not the only human on the planet who's had spiritual insights. First, I've never claimed that SR is a woo woo experience. In fact, exactly the opposite. Second, when I refer to "pure awareness," I'm not referring to everyday awareness; I'm only using that term to refer to awareness without any thoughts or perceptions--which only occurs in NS, and I can guarantee that you don't live in that state of awareness around the clock. Third, I refer to plural realizations because many posters on this forum, including myself, have had numerous existential realizations of many kinds--all of which increase clarity and understanding. SR is only one type of realization, but there are many others whether you're familiar with them or not. I once listed at least 7 or 8 significant kinds of existential realizations, and Hakuin claimed that during his life he had more than a 100 realizations. Fourth, the pathless path is about understanding as well as being because unless there is understanding, it's unlikely that the mind will be put to rest. Fifth, the kind of realizations all of us are pointing to NEVER deal with relative truths. So, I suggest calming down, and making at least a small effort to understand what other posters are writing about. You began your post by stating that I think SR is a woo woo experience. Okay, find where I wrote that, and post it. Then, we can discuss the other things that you wrote.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:38:47 GMT -5
Yes. That's perfectly stated. If that's so then why do you think that nirvikalpa samadhi has nothing to do with SR, when SR itself is sahaja samadhi? Sahaja samadhi is Self Realization. We'll discuss this in more depth soon enough, but the short answer is that SS is a state of being and SR is a realization, and there is a difference between a state of being and a realization.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:40:22 GMT -5
That's not true because what you returned from is also what you are. You cannot go anywhere that is not you because everything and no thing is you. You can never be absent from Self which is all there is. You are effectively arguing the case for separation. Yes absolutely, this is why I keep saying I AM is absent while what you are is present . We all agree about this, but a few words need to be added to make the meaning of this a bit clearer.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:43:52 GMT -5
Okay. I think I finally understand. I think what you're pointing to is the same thing that I point to when I say that pure awareness is foundational, and that even if the universe disappeared, awareness would still be here. That fact can be realized, but not through NS. .. Well perhaps yes, what I refer to as beyond mind where there is what you are present you would call pure awareness as a foundation . Pure awareness as a foundation is problematic as I see it because what I speak of is beyond awareness . If N.S. is pure awareness that is beyond I AM or where I AM is absent then you are saying it is still mindful and that perhaps is the difference you see . Either way when I AM awareness returns one can say I have realized pure awareness and in a way that is S.R. in my book because you have realized what you are .. You can't realize what you are as pure awareness and then return to I AM of the world and still have a sense of a so called illusory self . So S.R. must be attained via N.S. or beyond N.S. N.S. must equate to a realization had . Your idea that S.R. is seeing thru the illusory self must encompass realizing what one is as pure awareness .. Surely you must see that? You've raised so many issues in this post that it will take a while to deal with it, so I'll return to it later.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:46:38 GMT -5
I don't know how else to state it. From within the state of NS there is neither an outside nor an inside world; there is only pure awareness. NS is like the experience of pure awareness without an experiencer. It doesn't make sense logically. So when the experiencer returns the experiencer can then say what exactly? I AM pure awareness and not an illusory self peep? No. The experiencer can only say that for a certain period of time the sense of selfhood and everything else disappeared into a state of pure awareness. The only realization that I can relate to NS is the realization that such a state of pure awareness is possible.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:47:57 GMT -5
That's not what I am saying. The context here is that the Self is all there is and that there is only what you are. Remember what Seth said, that the outer self (ego) is just the outer layer or outer face of the inner self (Source) and that the distinction between inner self and outer self is done rather arbitrarily and only for the sake of convenience so that we can talk about it this kind of stuff. The way we define ego or the false self has a lot to do with the human framework of reference. Because we all have that more or less identical framework (camouflage in Seth's terms), we can more or less agree on a definition for ego. Ok, thanks for clarifying what you meant. By any definition of ego that I'd accept, the false sense of self never unifies with what it was only ever a reflection of. And, the ego and the infinite are incomparable in terms of any possible definition of value that one might contrive. The way I'd put it, what is realized is the nature of the camouflage, which is seen clearly for what it is. Yes.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:49:57 GMT -5
Nothing supersedes pure awareness as far as I know, but no one lives in a state of pure awareness more than a few hours, perhaps one or two days at the most, and subconscious mental functioning obviously continues because the body continues to live and breathe. NS has nothing to do with SR because NS is not a realization, and it doesn't help us understand anything. ... .. Well if nothing supersedes pure awareness and pure awareness is 'what you are' then this is realized the moment there is awareness of I AM present . Seeing thru illusions of the mind is what in comparison? Half way up the mountain compared to pure awareness that is at the mountains pinnacle? N.S. is a realization because one knows that 'they are that' which is beyond I AM . How can you say it doesn't help us understand anything, when one has the ultimate comparison had . Peeps that only shift self identities of the mind are not having the comparison of pure awareness are they, they are caught in a mind loop perceiving self in a million different way's, thinking this is not my true self and this is .. More about this later. I'm just trying to catch up on what was posted in the last several hours.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:51:55 GMT -5
The only state of mind that really matters is SS because that state of mind can continue in the midst of ordinary life, and it manifests as peace, freedom, flow, and equanimity. It's like being at home, knowing you're at home, and knowing that home is the only place one can BE because it's the only place there IS. We could also call it "abiding in the Self, as Self" if we wanted to put it in spiritual terms. .. How many dudes do you know that entertain a state of S.S.? I mean what is ordinary life in relation to S.S.? When I am away from the hustle and bustle of a busy studio environment and I haven't got kid crisis's going on and when the car doesn't break down etc etc I am in a different state of mind .. When I am at home and I am able to run and meditate and do healing work again I am in a higher / finer state of mind so to speak . I used to have conversations with my mum about how much harder it is to Self realize in the west than it is in the east in regards to the known masters .. It was an interesting discussion and it depends on lots of aspects regarding what was concluded but I am certain that a dude that floats on by in a state of S.S. will have his wings clipped eventually when subjected to enormous amounts stress and trauma . S.S. is only experienced while the ocean is calm or moderately calm . We could even say that outbursts of anger at times for whatever reason is disrupting S.S. Perhaps it would be futile to debate these aspects, but in my mind there is either a state of S.S. or their isn't and maybe what that constitutes will be subjective as always . In the state referred to as "SS" it doesn't matter whether life is calm or frenetic; the state is continuous. Not even anger disrupts SS. More about this later.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:57:13 GMT -5
I think he means that he concludes after the fact the difference between the two states. Yes, eggsactly this is why I talk about comparisons had . This is why I gave the example of knowing you were asleep the moment you awaken . You are not in this instance knowing you are awake prior to awakening . What is difficult to understand about this? LOL .. we all experience this most morning's . I AM and beyond I AM, mind and no mind, self and no self is no different in one way because you know that I AM is present the moment there is awareness of I AM compared to not . The moment you regain I AM awareness you know that I AM was absent because what you are was still present . This I can understand as being misunderstood because peeps need the realization of what they are that is beyond I AM . If there is no comparison for this then it can be difficult to understand for sure . I'm a bit dull, but I'm slowly beginning to understand your foreign language. LOL. Bear with me as I try to translate your language into the one that most of us are using.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 7:59:04 GMT -5
What you are is present while I AM is absent . You don't have the comparison, this is why you and many on the forums don't actually understand what I AM saying .
I don't say what was realized per se when I AM is absent or within the beingness itself do I? I don't because there was no-one there concluding that 'what we are' is consciousness or pure awareness amongst other things . This is why I spoke for months about conclusions and not Truthy realizations that peeps have the moment one regains I AM / self awareness. I repeat myself often because peeps either don't understand or they don't listen . Here's a waste paper bin to throw that idea into..
Yes, at the moment people are talking past one another, and making assumptions about what other people think. That's always a business fraught with danger.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 13, 2020 8:07:35 GMT -5
If that's so then why do you think that nirvikalpa samadhi has nothing to do with SR, when SR itself is sahaja samadhi? Sahaja samadhi is Self Realization. We'll discuss this in more depth soon enough, but the short answer is that SS is a state of being and SR is a realization, and there is a difference between a state of being and a realization. Let's agree to disagree.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 13, 2020 8:08:11 GMT -5
You think that NS has got nothing to do with SR because you think that SR is a woo woo experience which reveals relative truths about existence. That's clear enough because you talk about realizations in the plural, never about THE realization which is Self realization and which is beyond and prior to all concepts. It's not about understanding anything, it's about Being. We are always living in the state of pure awareness not just for one hour or one day. Your mind blowing satori stories have nothing to do with SR. Wow, did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Please stop jumping to conclusions about what other people are trying to communicate, put away your incredibly strong opinions for a few moments, show a little respect and humility, and try to grasp that you're not the only human on the planet who's had spiritual insights. First, I've never claimed that SR is a woo woo experience. In fact, exactly the opposite. Second, when I refer to "pure awareness," I'm not referring to everyday awareness; I'm only using that term to refer to awareness without any thoughts or perceptions--which only occurs in NS, and I can guarantee that you don't live in that state of awareness around the clock. Third, I refer to plural realizations because many posters on this forum, including myself, have had numerous existential realizations of many kinds--all of which increase clarity and understanding. SR is only one type of realization, but there are many others whether you're familiar with them or not. I once listed at least 7 or 8 significant kinds of existential realizations, and Hakuin claimed that during his life he had more than a 100 realizations. Fourth, the pathless path is about understanding as well as being because unless there is understanding, it's unlikely that the mind will be put to rest. Fifth, the kind of realizations all of us are pointing to NEVER deal with relative truths. So, I suggest calming down, and making at least a small effort to understand what other posters are writing about. You began your post by stating that I think SR is a woo woo experience. Okay, find where I wrote that, and post it. Then, we can discuss the other things that you wrote. Let's agree to disagree.
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Post by krsnaraja on Jan 13, 2020 8:11:39 GMT -5
What you are is present while I AM is absent . You don't have the comparison, this is why you and many on the forums don't actually understand what I AM saying .
I don't say what was realized per se when I AM is absent or within the beingness itself do I? I don't because there was no-one there concluding that 'what we are' is consciousness or pure awareness amongst other things . This is why I spoke for months about conclusions and not Truthy realizations that peeps have the moment one regains I AM / self awareness. I repeat myself often because peeps either don't understand or they don't listen . Here's a waste paper bin to throw that idea into..
It was on the morning of May 6, 2006. This picture looks almost exactly the same ( bin beside the cabinet) when I left home for work. There were crumpled papers inside the garbage bin. Without thinking cause I was in a hurry threw the remains of my ash tray filled with cigarette butts. One was still glowing. The next I knew I was treating patients /inmates in the prison' s infirmary when our neighbor called me on the phone. He said, "Doc! Your house is on fire!" I replied aloud three times, "Praise the Lord! "
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Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 8:28:01 GMT -5
Wow, did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Please stop jumping to conclusions about what other people are trying to communicate, put away your incredibly strong opinions for a few moments, show a little respect and humility, and try to grasp that you're not the only human on the planet who's had spiritual insights. First, I've never claimed that SR is a woo woo experience. In fact, exactly the opposite. Second, when I refer to "pure awareness," I'm not referring to everyday awareness; I'm only using that term to refer to awareness without any thoughts or perceptions--which only occurs in NS, and I can guarantee that you don't live in that state of awareness around the clock. Third, I refer to plural realizations because many posters on this forum, including myself, have had numerous existential realizations of many kinds--all of which increase clarity and understanding. SR is only one type of realization, but there are many others whether you're familiar with them or not. I once listed at least 7 or 8 significant kinds of existential realizations, and Hakuin claimed that during his life he had more than a 100 realizations. Fourth, the pathless path is about understanding as well as being because unless there is understanding, it's unlikely that the mind will be put to rest. Fifth, the kind of realizations all of us are pointing to NEVER deal with relative truths. So, I suggest calming down, and making at least a small effort to understand what other posters are writing about. You began your post by stating that I think SR is a woo woo experience. Okay, find where I wrote that, and post it. Then, we can discuss the other things that you wrote. Let's agree to disagree. That's fine with me, but you made several claims about what you think I wrote. Can you back up the first one?
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