|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 11:27:13 GMT -5
OK. Let's try a different approach. What are you doing that results in a state of pure awareness beyond thought? Are you meditating? Are you using the word "realization" to refer to the state of mind that many of us call "nirvikalpa samadhi?" What happens from your POV prior to entering such a state of pure awareness? I have mentioned this many times, but to refresh your memory I had a feeling that was building up within me for several days which was getting stronger and stronger ... I was having a run on my running machine on one particular day and I knew I had to stop running and sit down immediately because the intensity was at it's most pinnacle point .. Within a few seconds of sitting down an energy encapsulated me for use of a better word and I was drawn / pulled / sucked within and without at the same time (in fact any directional pointer given wouldn't be understood in a linear fashion) It's what I understand to be part of the transcention process or what other's here described as being a vacuum of sorts that either Ramana or niz described regarding the heart centre's involvement in it .. From these moments onwards I had what I would relate to being a C.C. experiences and then went beyond that into what I regard as beyond I AM, beyond mind where what you are is present . Okay. I had forgotten that aspect of your story. It sounds very much like what happened to Tolle. He got sucked into what he called a kind of "vortex," heard the words "Resist nothing," and then the whole world disappeared. He woke up the next day to a different world and an amazing psychological transformation. He claimed that about 80% of his past mind-talk (which had been extremely negative) had disappeared and it never returned. He didn't know what had happened to him, but he went from a state of extreme inner turmoil and suicidal thoughts to a state of peace literally overnight. He did not realize or understand until much later what had happened to him. In short, he dis-identified with his past ideas about himself, and he also realized that reality is not what he had thought it was. Falling into deep samadhi is similar to falling into the vortex that Tolle describes because it feels as if one gets sucked into that state after passing a kind of "event horizon." After that happens, everything disappears, including any sense of I am. In that state there is only pure awareness without thoughts or perceptions. Nothing can be known in that state because it's a state of non-dual awareness. The only thing that can be remembered afterwards is that it was a unified state of pure awareness empty of all content. It sounds to me as if what happened to you was a CC event similar to what happened to Tolle. Zen people distinguish between those kinds of events and satori, which is equivalent to SR. Some people apparently attain SR as a result of a CC event, but that's pretty rare. SR is usually a separate realization/event. AAR, I now have a better understanding of what you've been writing about
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 11, 2020 11:44:43 GMT -5
I don't really disagree with you re: ego. But the story you have been telling, that's only half the story or half the truth. And only knowing have the story and clinging to half truths can be dangerous business. You see, if NS doesn't result in seeing thru the false sense of self then it's very likely that what we have as a result is a spiritual ego with a literal god complex. The whole story is that there is nothing but the Self and there is nothing that is not the Self, but it's only a story until it's realized. There is no false sense of self. The falsity is in mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are. That's not the same thing.I think for most of the free world, it is.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 11:52:08 GMT -5
Well, deep samadhi is not a realization for one thing; it's a non-dual state of mind that's sort of like hitting the "clear" button on a calculator. The only understanding that seems to stem from that state are: 1. Such a state of psychological and physical unity is possible 2. It's a blissful state of deep peace 3. Pure awareness seems to be foundational because there's no sense of selfhood, self reference, thoughts, perceptions, space, time, or even "I am" Zen people call NS "the dropping off of body and mind" because everything disappears in that state except pure awareness. They also regard NS as a highly correlated precursor to CC events, passing through the dateless gate, and other possible realizations. Ramana regarded NS as "the deepest state of mind" and I would agree with that assessment. For some people I suspect that NS is a precursor to SR, but I haven't talked to any long-time meditators or people in the Zen tradition to specifically ask about this. I've read a lot of books about Ramana, but I've never read a highly detailed account of exactly what happened to him regarding SR. All of the accounts claim that he spent many years sitting in NS after SR, but I'm not sure whether his initial realization was a CC-type event or something like what happened to Paul Morgan-Somers. Even with Somers I can't remember exactly how he describes what happened. I think he sat down on his back porch and was suddenly enveloped by what he called "the ocean of being," or something like that. Whereas Ramana became frightened by the prospect of death, which caused him to lay down and question the nature of death (resulting in his realization), Somers didn't have any existential questions at all. He was just kicking a soccer ball around and WHAM! He did the same sort of thing that Ramana did afterwards. He went to a London bookstore, met a guy from a Hindu monastery, and went to live there for 5 years. I can't remember him mentioning NS, but it's been a while since I saw him interviewed. I know that all kinds of far-out things happened to him, and that he had many unusual psychic ESP type experiences, but I don't remember him mentioning meditation or meditative states. At one time I speculated that NS might be necessary for SR, but I met a Zen Master who told me to forget that idea. In retrospect, I think a fair amount of NS might very well result in SR because it's the deepest state of silence and psychological unity that I know about and three multi-hour periods of NS preceded kensho for this character. One thing I've often wondered about, but never asked anyone about, has to do with what I call "apprehending the Infinite." Tolle, Somers, and other sages describe being sucked into a state of relative thought-free unity and a state of selfless flow, and they often allude to encountering things that are rather mind-boggling, but none of them, to the best of my memory, have described encountering the Infinite. It's possible that they have, and I just don't remember reading about it. I do know that Bernie Glassman had a powerful kensho that totally changed his life, and I think he may have mentioned discovering the vastness and incomprehensibility of the Infinite, or whatever we want to call THAT. Thanks for the zen reference. I thought in zen they either don't care or don't know about this. Yes, I can see the similarities to CC and I can relate to everything you say about NS except the no perception part. But that seems to be the key part, right? Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. So if NS is really Tenka's and Satch's reference, then this does explain several years of forum dialog and misunderstandings. ETA: The best description I've read re: 'apprehending the Infinite' is from Suzanne Segal. Not sure if you remember. I can post some links if you don't. Correct. NS does not usually result in SR, but it may make SR more likely. Its also possible that sustained NS might lead to SR for all I know. However, in thinking about what Tenka wrote about his CC event, and about Tolle's story, I'm reminded of Helen Courtois. She, too, had a super powerful CC, and lived in a state that many of us would call sahaja samadhi for many years before falling out of it. Her description of life after the CC is almost identical to what Tolle wrote about the two years following his CC when he sat on park benches in a state of extreme peace, bliss, and flow. I don't know how the rest of Tolle's story played out, but I'm intimately familiar with what happened to Courtois because I started writing to her after I read her book. We communicated right up to the point when she died. In her case, she never attained SR, so her enlightened way of life came to an end after going back to graduate school. Her incessant thinking led to a lot of reflective thoughts about the great gift she knew that she had received, but she began to think that she had "squandered it." When she discussed that with me, I had not yet seen through the illusion of selfhood, so I didn't know what to say to her. If she had attained SR, she would have known that there was no separate entity capable of squandering anything or losing anything. IOW, she's the perfect example of someone who regained a child-like state of freedom, peace, and equanimity as a result of intense existential contemplation, but lost it due to a failure to see through the illusion of selfhood (the false sense of self). I do think that Courtois had a realization. Via her CC she realized that reality was not what she thought it was, but she lacked the one realization that would have given her even greater clarity and understanding. Thinking about her story makes me wonder what happened to Tolle in the years following his CC. Did he ever attain SR? Has he ever written about that? In his case, because of his personality, he's unlikely to lose his state of equanimity because from watching his videos and knowing about his lifestyle, it seems unlikely that he'll ever re-engage with mind talk in the way that Courtois eventually did which led to her losing her enlightened state of mind. That's just speculation based on what I know about both people.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 11:55:09 GMT -5
Read what I wrote. I said description, not example. Which means her life story is of no relevance here. Segal is actually a rather odd case. But her descriptions of what we are pointing to are one of the best you can find in books. Do you have a good quote or two that illustrates that? I haven't read her book. Just out of curiosity, if you haven't read her book, why do you have such a strong negative opinion about her experiences? From a single paragraph in Wikipedia?
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 11:58:03 GMT -5
The whole story is that there is nothing but the Self and there is nothing that is not the Self, but it's only a story until it's realized. There is no false sense of self. The falsity is in mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are. That's not the same thing.I think for most of the free world, it is. Agreed. There obviously is a false sense of self if one "is mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are." I think that's the definition of a false sense of self.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 12:19:06 GMT -5
Again this is something that I have spoken about a dozen times now but to refresh your memory you know when you were absent the moment your are aware of I AM.I have spoken about the comparison had of self and no self, mind and no mind and waking up from a nights sleep to be awakened to the waking world . You know you have been asleep the moment you are awake . It's that simple . The difference however in what I have been speaking about is that when I AM is absent what you are is still present . You are that . This differs from waking up knowing you were asleep because there is no awareness of what you are being present when you are asleep (generally speaking). This is why I asked Andy when he was knocked unconscious was there the awareness of what you are present? If it is just a blank and no awareness had then it can relate to the mind-body mechanism protecting Andy from going into shock. This is why near death experiences can be a blessing or a curse, this is why Suzanne Segal became fearful of her experiences had . Out of body stuff and near death experiences are mindful still .. Self realisation as I see it or beyond I AM isn't .. This is why I have suggested to recollect what was experienced in these times . It will reveal the answer, or at the very least in part . I AM is the sense of existence. There will be nothing to recall from when there was no sense of existence. Here's what I can add. Tolle claimed that he didn't remember anything from the moment he got sucked into the vortex until he woke up the next morning. When someone comes out of NS, it's a similar situation, but not exactly. One can remember what happened just prior to everything disappearing, and one can remember that there existed a state of pure awareness without content, but unless a clock were right in front of someone, there would be no idea of how long one was in that state or anything else about that state except that it was deeply peaceful, blissful, and empty of content. While one is in that state, there is no knowledge of anything, and there is no sense of existence. Satch has more experience with deep samadhi, so he might be able to add something more than this. I think it's obvious that some sort of subconscious mental functioning continues in deep samadhi (otherwise nothing about it could be remembered), but apparently the state goes so deep that even the sense of I am disappears. That's why I consider pure awareness to be foundational. During a CC it became obvious that awareness is infinite and that awareness would remain even if the "physical" universe totally disappeared.
|
|
|
Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 12:41:53 GMT -5
Do you have a good quote or two that illustrates that? I haven't read her book. Just out of curiosity, if you haven't read her book, why do you have such a strong negative opinion about her experiences? From a single paragraph in Wikipedia? How many sages have you heard of sinking into deep depression and anxiety?
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 13:49:30 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, if you haven't read her book, why do you have such a strong negative opinion about her experiences? From a single paragraph in Wikipedia? How many sages have you heard of sinking into deep depression and anxiety? I suggest that you read her book to get a better sense of what she experienced/encountered. I'm not claiming anything about how realized she became, but her story is extremely compelling. FWIW, there have been many sages who've become depressed or experienced anxiety, and some have committed suicide. Ikkyu is one of the more famous cases. The future is unknowable, and given the right conditions, it could happen to anybody no matter how enlightened they think they are. Sages have also been alcoholics and chain smokers, and several have had psychotic breaks, so there are no guarantees. Sages remain human, and they're therefore susceptible to the same illnesses, both physical or mental, as any other people.
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 14:48:03 GMT -5
Oh, but there isn't . Who/m or what is present that can be surprised . You don't seem to know what beyond I AM means on infers do you . There isn't I AM thinking I AM this and not that .. There is no thought / there is no mind environment to conclude anything . Please explain to me how you can realise something about what you are beyond the mind and beyond a thought of yourself . Yes, ZD informed me that you guys were discussing something different than what I was referring to. You may have read that. I note, however, that even still, you don't seem to have a reference for what I was referring to. I don't know what you were referring too . What realisation were you referring too?
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 14:50:57 GMT -5
Again this is something that I have spoken about a dozen times now but to refresh your memory you know when you were absent the moment your are aware of I AM.I have spoken about the comparison had of self and no self, mind and no mind and waking up from a nights sleep to be awakened to the waking world . You know you have been asleep the moment you are awake . It's that simple . The difference however in what I have been speaking about is that when I AM is absent what you are is still present . You are that . This differs from waking up knowing you were asleep because there is no awareness of what you are being present when you are asleep (generally speaking). This is why I asked Andy when he was knocked unconscious was there the awareness of what you are present? If it is just a blank and no awareness had then it can relate to the mind-body mechanism protecting Andy from going into shock. This is why near death experiences can be a blessing or a curse, this is why Suzanne Segal became fearful of her experiences had . Out of body stuff and near death experiences are mindful still .. Self realisation as I see it or beyond I AM isn't .. This is why I have suggested to recollect what was experienced in these times . It will reveal the answer, or at the very least in part . I AM is the sense of existence. There will be nothing to recall from when there was no sense of existence. Yes, I am is a sense of existence . Beyond mind is beyond I AM existing . You only know that I was not existing when I AM aware of I AM .
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 15:07:53 GMT -5
I have mentioned this many times, but to refresh your memory I had a feeling that was building up within me for several days which was getting stronger and stronger ... I was having a run on my running machine on one particular day and I knew I had to stop running and sit down immediately because the intensity was at it's most pinnacle point .. Within a few seconds of sitting down an energy encapsulated me for use of a better word and I was drawn / pulled / sucked within and without at the same time (in fact any directional pointer given wouldn't be understood in a linear fashion) It's what I understand to be part of the transcention process or what other's here described as being a vacuum of sorts that either Ramana or niz described regarding the heart centre's involvement in it .. From these moments onwards I had what I would relate to being a C.C. experiences and then went beyond that into what I regard as beyond I AM, beyond mind where what you are is present . Okay. I had forgotten that aspect of your story. It sounds very much like what happened to Tolle. He got sucked into what he called a kind of "vortex," heard the words "Resist nothing," and then the whole world disappeared. He woke up the next day to a different world and an amazing psychological transformation. He claimed that about 80% of his past mind-talk (which had been extremely negative) had disappeared and it never returned. He didn't know what had happened to him, but he went from a state of extreme inner turmoil and suicidal thoughts to a state of peace literally overnight. He did not realize or understand until much later what had happened to him. In short, he dis-identified with his past ideas about himself, and he also realized that reality is not what he had thought it was. Falling into deep samadhi is similar to falling into the vortex that Tolle describes because it feels as if one gets sucked into that state after passing a kind of "event horizon." After that happens, everything disappears, including any sense of I am. In that state there is only pure awareness without thoughts or perceptions. Nothing can be known in that state because it's a state of non-dual awareness. The only thing that can be remembered afterwards is that it was a unified state of pure awareness empty of all content.
It sounds to me as if what happened to you was a CC event similar to what happened to Tolle. Zen people distinguish between those kinds of events and satori, which is equivalent to SR. Some people apparently attain SR as a result of a CC event, but that's pretty rare. SR is usually a separate realization/event. AAR, I now have a better understanding of what you've been writing about I believe what resulted in was not a C.C. I had spoken of experiencing that prior to going beyond that . C.C's are of the mind and there is a knowing of sorts . What is a bit silly in my opinion is that peeps can label stuff like pure awareness absent of anything I AM related and then say it's not S.R. In certain circles pure awareness is what you are ... so what is beyond pure awareness lol ... If peeps want to suggest that what you are is pure awareness and what that is, is a C.C. experience then what's the bloody difference of that to N.S. or S.R. It's going to be purely subjective isn't it . In a C.C. the universe didn't disappear did it . The awareness of the earth ties may have disappeared but cosmic consciousness is mindful . What is beyond mind in your opinion . Is S.R. mindful? Anything mindful in my eyes will just reflect the individual self so S.R. has to encompass beyond this . So if there is in your optinion beyond pure awareness then I am eager to here of it . Beyond mind in my understanding is beyond consciousness and beyond awareness . When I spoke about what happened to me, I didn't mention either .
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 15:13:15 GMT -5
I don't really disagree with you re: ego. But the story you have been telling, that's only half the story or half the truth. And only knowing have the story and clinging to half truths can be dangerous business. You see, if NS doesn't result in seeing thru the false sense of self then it's very likely that what we have as a result is a spiritual ego with a literal god complex. The whole story is that there is nothing but the Self and there is nothing that is not the Self, but it's only a story until it's realized. There is no false sense of self. The falsity is in mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are. That's not the same thing. If we speak of the ugly duckling story, the swan thought it was an ugly duckling . I think you are suggesting that there is not a false self present, there has only ever been the swan . A false sense of what you are is simply a thought .. That doesn't constitute a false self entity so to speak . This is why when the Pilgrim say's the false self types, it isn't a false self that actually types it is what you are that types that thinks it is this or that . I agree with you in that there is only Self .
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 15:37:47 GMT -5
Okay. I had forgotten that aspect of your story. It sounds very much like what happened to Tolle. He got sucked into what he called a kind of "vortex," heard the words "Resist nothing," and then the whole world disappeared. He woke up the next day to a different world and an amazing psychological transformation. He claimed that about 80% of his past mind-talk (which had been extremely negative) had disappeared and it never returned. He didn't know what had happened to him, but he went from a state of extreme inner turmoil and suicidal thoughts to a state of peace literally overnight. He did not realize or understand until much later what had happened to him. In short, he dis-identified with his past ideas about himself, and he also realized that reality is not what he had thought it was. Falling into deep samadhi is similar to falling into the vortex that Tolle describes because it feels as if one gets sucked into that state after passing a kind of "event horizon." After that happens, everything disappears, including any sense of I am. In that state there is only pure awareness without thoughts or perceptions. Nothing can be known in that state because it's a state of non-dual awareness. The only thing that can be remembered afterwards is that it was a unified state of pure awareness empty of all content.
It sounds to me as if what happened to you was a CC event similar to what happened to Tolle. Zen people distinguish between those kinds of events and satori, which is equivalent to SR. Some people apparently attain SR as a result of a CC event, but that's pretty rare. SR is usually a separate realization/event. AAR, I now have a better understanding of what you've been writing about I believe what resulted in was not a C.C. I had spoken of experiencing that prior to going beyond that . C.C's are of the mind and there is a knowing of sorts . What is a bit silly in my option is that peeps can label stuff like pure awareness absent of anything I AM related and then say it's not S.R. In certain circles pure awareness is what you are ... so what is beyond pure awareness lol ... If peeps want to suggest that what you are is pure awareness and what that is, is a C.C. experience then what's the bloody difference of that to N.S. or S.R. It's going to be purely subjective isn't it . In a C.C. the universe didn't disappear did it . The awareness of the earth ties may have disappeared but cosmic consciousness is mindful . What is beyond mind in your opinion . Is S.R. mindful? Anything mindful in my eyes will just reflect self reflections via the individual self so S.R. has to encompass beyond this . So if there is in your option beyond pure awareness then I am eager to here of it . Beyond mind in my understanding is beyond consciousness and beyond awareness . When I spoke about what happened to me, I didn't mention either . All that we can do via language is attempt to relate our own experiences and realizations with those of others. I can tell you that NS, in which everything disappears but awareness remains, is not equivalent to SR. SR is a distinct event--a seeing through of the illusion of personal selfhood. One can have numerous experiences of NS--pure awareness beyond any sense of I am--, and still not attain SR. Most people, after sensory perception and thoughts return, still imagine that they are separate volitional entities who entered a state of psychological unity without content and remained in that state for some period of time. They would not know how long that period of time was unless they happened to see a clock before and afterwards. Some people stay in that state of pure awareness for more than 12 hours, but typically the state lasts between 1 and 5 hours. From what I've read about Ramana he apparently stayed in deep states of samadhi for very long periods of time, and in some cases for more than two days at a time. You are correct that during most CC's consciousness of the world does not cease (although it is transformed), but perhaps we need a new word to designate the kind of disappearance that Tolle wrote about in his book. His experience/event doesn't sound like NS because in his case even awareness ceased after he got sucked into the psychological vortex he tried to describe. IOW he was unaware of either the world or awareness until he woke up the next morning. It was almost as if he were knocked unconscious by whatever happened to him internally/psychologically. Whatever happened to him during those hours resulted in a complete psychological transformation, but I don't know if that included SR. I doubt that it did based upon what he wrote in his first book. Perhaps later he attained SR, but I've never read anything about that.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 15:42:59 GMT -5
The whole story is that there is nothing but the Self and there is nothing that is not the Self, but it's only a story until it's realized. There is no false sense of self. The falsity is in mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are. That's not the same thing. If we speak of the ugly duckling story, the swan thought it was an ugly duckling . I think you are suggesting that there is not a false self present, there has only ever been the swan . A false sense of what you are is simply a thought .. That doesn't constitute a false self entity so to speak . This is why when the Pilgrim say's the false self types, it isn't a false self that actually types it is what you are that types that thinks it is this or that . I agree with you in that there is only Self . I also agree that there is only Self. The false sense of self is a thought structure of some kind, and when it collapses, the truth is realized (the ugly duckling realizes that it is a swan rather than an ugly duckling).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 16:43:15 GMT -5
If we speak of the ugly duckling story, the swan thought it was an ugly duckling . I think you are suggesting that there is not a false self present, there has only ever been the swan . A false sense of what you are is simply a thought .. That doesn't constitute a false self entity so to speak . This is why when the Pilgrim say's the false self types, it isn't a false self that actually types it is what you are that types that thinks it is this or that . I agree with you in that there is only Self . I also agree that there is only Self. The false sense of self is a thought structure of some kind, and when it collapses, the truth is realized (the ugly duckling realizes that it is a swan rather than an ugly duckling). "Meditation is what we are, not what we do; the separate self is what we do, not what we are." ~ Rupert Spira.
|
|