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Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 5:17:21 GMT -5
Well I have been clear in the past that there is no realisation per se within 'simply being what you are' or 'pure awareness' as you put it . Oh, but there is. And it can come as a complete surprise, when it happens. :-) Oh, but there isn't . Who/m or what is present that can be surprised . You don't seem to know what beyond I AM means on infers do you . There isn't I AM thinking I AM this and not that .. There is no thought / there is no mind environment to conclude anything . Please explain to me how you can realise something about what you are beyond the mind and beyond a thought of yourself .
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Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 5:25:14 GMT -5
It was an after thought as said .. I didn't recollect that sense at all .. It was simply a thought that came once I AM returned . I mean WW3 could of happened while I AM was absent and it wouldn't of mattered would it .. I can however only imply that once returned . There is only the thought post realization, so how can there be anything to recollect? There is only the now thought, so if there was no thought, there cannot be anything to recollect .. How did you determine that I Am was absent, or that there was nothing to recollect? Again this is something that I have spoken about a dozen times now but to refresh your memory you know when you were absent the moment your are aware of I AM. I have spoken about the comparison had of self and no self, mind and no mind and waking up from a nights sleep to be awakened to the waking world . You know you have been asleep the moment you are awake . It's that simple . The difference however in what I have been speaking about is that when I AM is absent what you are is still present . You are that . This differs from waking up knowing you were asleep because there is no awareness of what you are being present when you are asleep (generally speaking). This is why I asked Andy when he was knocked unconscious was there the awareness of what you are present? If it is just a blank and no awareness had then it can relate to the mind-body mechanism protecting Andy from going into shock. This is why near death experiences can be a blessing or a curse, this is why Suzanne Segal became fearful of her experiences had . Out of body stuff and near death experiences are mindful still .. Self realisation as I see it or beyond I AM isn't .. This is why I have suggested to recollect what was experienced in these times . It will reveal the answer, or at the very least in part .
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Post by Reefs on Jan 11, 2020 5:26:32 GMT -5
That's what I am speculating as well. But what's that got to do with SR? And what are the practical real life consequences of that 'realization'? What would you say? Well, deep samadhi is not a realization for one thing; it's a non-dual state of mind that's sort of like hitting the "clear" button on a calculator. The only understanding that seems to stem from that state are: 1. Such a state of psychological and physical unity is possible 2. It's a blissful state of deep peace 3. Pure awareness seems to be foundational because there's no sense of selfhood, self reference, thoughts, perceptions, space, time, or even "I am" Zen people call NS "the dropping off of body and mind" because everything disappears in that state except pure awareness. They also regard NS as a highly correlated precursor to CC events, passing through the dateless gate, and other possible realizations. Ramana regarded NS as "the deepest state of mind" and I would agree with that assessment. For some people I suspect that NS is a precursor to SR, but I haven't talked to any long-time meditators or people in the Zen tradition to specifically ask about this. I've read a lot of books about Ramana, but I've never read a highly detailed account of exactly what happened to him regarding SR. All of the accounts claim that he spent many years sitting in NS after SR, but I'm not sure whether his initial realization was a CC-type event or something like what happened to Paul Morgan-Somers. Even with Somers I can't remember exactly how he describes what happened. I think he sat down on his back porch and was suddenly enveloped by what he called "the ocean of being," or something like that. Whereas Ramana became frightened by the prospect of death, which caused him to lay down and question the nature of death (resulting in his realization), Somers didn't have any existential questions at all. He was just kicking a soccer ball around and WHAM! He did the same sort of thing that Ramana did afterwards. He went to a London bookstore, met a guy from a Hindu monastery, and went to live there for 5 years. I can't remember him mentioning NS, but it's been a while since I saw him interviewed. I know that all kinds of far-out things happened to him, and that he had many unusual psychic ESP type experiences, but I don't remember him mentioning meditation or meditative states. At one time I speculated that NS might be necessary for SR, but I met a Zen Master who told me to forget that idea. In retrospect, I think a fair amount of NS might very well result in SR because it's the deepest state of silence and psychological unity that I know about and three multi-hour periods of NS preceded kensho for this character. One thing I've often wondered about, but never asked anyone about, has to do with what I call "apprehending the Infinite." Tolle, Somers, and other sages describe being sucked into a state of relative thought-free unity and a state of selfless flow, and they often allude to encountering things that are rather mind-boggling, but none of them, to the best of my memory, have described encountering the Infinite. It's possible that they have, and I just don't remember reading about it. I do know that Bernie Glassman had a powerful kensho that totally changed his life, and I think he may have mentioned discovering the vastness and incomprehensibility of the Infinite, or whatever we want to call THAT. Thanks for the zen reference. I thought in zen they either don't care or don't know about this. Yes, I can see the similarities to CC and I can relate to everything you say about NS except the no perception part. But that seems to be the key part, right? Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. So if NS is really Tenka's and Satch's reference, then this does explain several years of forum dialog and misunderstandings. ETA: The best description I've read re: 'apprehending the Infinite' is from Suzanne Segal. Not sure if you remember. I can post some links if you don't.
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Post by tenka on Jan 11, 2020 5:34:50 GMT -5
Well, deep samadhi is not a realization for one thing; it's a non-dual state of mind that's sort of like hitting the "clear" button on a calculator. The only understanding that seems to stem from that state are: 1. Such a state of psychological and physical unity is possible 2. It's a blissful state of deep peace 3. Pure awareness seems to be foundational because there's no sense of selfhood, self reference, thoughts, perceptions, space, time, or even "I am" Zen people call NS "the dropping off of body and mind" because everything disappears in that state except pure awareness. They also regard NS as a highly correlated precursor to CC events, passing through the dateless gate, and other possible realizations. Ramana regarded NS as "the deepest state of mind" and I would agree with that assessment. For some people I suspect that NS is a precursor to SR, but I haven't talked to any long-time meditators or people in the Zen tradition to specifically ask about this. I've read a lot of books about Ramana, but I've never read a highly detailed account of exactly what happened to him regarding SR. All of the accounts claim that he spent many years sitting in NS after SR, but I'm not sure whether his initial realization was a CC-type event or something like what happened to Paul Morgan-Somers. Even with Somers I can't remember exactly how he describes what happened. I think he sat down on his back porch and was suddenly enveloped by what he called "the ocean of being," or something like that. Whereas Ramana became frightened by the prospect of death, which caused him to lay down and question the nature of death (resulting in his realization), Somers didn't have any existential questions at all. He was just kicking a soccer ball around and WHAM! He did the same sort of thing that Ramana did afterwards. He went to a London bookstore, met a guy from a Hindu monastery, and went to live there for 5 years. I can't remember him mentioning NS, but it's been a while since I saw him interviewed. I know that all kinds of far-out things happened to him, and that he had many unusual psychic ESP type experiences, but I don't remember him mentioning meditation or meditative states. At one time I speculated that NS might be necessary for SR, but I met a Zen Master who told me to forget that idea. In retrospect, I think a fair amount of NS might very well result in SR because it's the deepest state of silence and psychological unity that I know about and three multi-hour periods of NS preceded kensho for this character. One thing I've often wondered about, but never asked anyone about, has to do with what I call "apprehending the Infinite." Tolle, Somers, and other sages describe being sucked into a state of relative thought-free unity and a state of selfless flow, and they often allude to encountering things that are rather mind-boggling, but none of them, to the best of my memory, have described encountering the Infinite. It's possible that they have, and I just don't remember reading about it. I do know that Bernie Glassman had a powerful kensho that totally changed his life, and I think he may have mentioned discovering the vastness and incomprehensibility of the Infinite, or whatever we want to call THAT. Thanks for the zen reference. I thought in zen they either don't care or don't know about this. Yes, I can see the similarities to CC and I can relate to everything you say about NS except the no perception part. But that seems to be the key part, right? Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential question as CC/kensho and satori do. So if that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. So if NS is really Tenka's and Satch's reference, then this does explain several years of forum dialog and misunderstandings. .. All I know are the differences between self and mind and no self and no mind and the thought of I AM compared to not . Seeing thru the self hood while of the mind is not S.R. It's just seeing self in a different light . This is why I mentioned the hall of mirrors giving off another self reflection .. There are perhaps an infinite amount of reflections that can potentially be perceived / experienced . . S.R. is relating to what you are beyond I AM and beyond the mind in my understanding .. There is a value in seeing different aspects of our mindful self, but as said before I concur with what Bernadette Roberts said about one needs to know of no self in order to know self . All peeps are doing here is bouncing self off against self . There needs the comparison of self and no self but it seems to fall on deaf ears .. To some it doesn't even make logical sense but it makes perfect sense to me . I have the comparison, so I have the understanding of it .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 6:35:21 GMT -5
don't sweat it dude. After spending time on twitter a lot last year, this forum can be seen as more like having a chat in a jacuzzi with a beer. Of course it's not perfect here, and i get irritable with certain things, but your input and perspective is valid and interesting, so don't worry about biases and double standards too much. Never overlook how much contrast affects perception.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2020 7:15:13 GMT -5
Oh, but there is. And it can come as a complete surprise, when it happens. :-) Oh, but there isn't . Who/m or what is present that can be surprised . You don't seem to know what beyond I AM means on infers do you . There isn't I AM thinking I AM this and not that .. There is no thought / there is no mind environment to conclude anything . Please explain to me how you can realise something about what you are beyond the mind and beyond a thought of yourself . Yes, ZD informed me that you guys were discussing something different than what I was referring to. You may have read that. I note, however, that even still, you don't seem to have a reference for what I was referring to.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 7:35:18 GMT -5
The best description I've read re: 'apprehending the Infinite' is from Suzanne Segal. Not sure if you remember. I can post some links if you don't. This is your best example of someone apprehending the infinite? In addition to gaining note in the spiritual community, Segal became a model case of the dissociative condition known as depersonalization disorder (DPD). Along her journey some therapists formally diagnosed her with DPD, while others did not have clear explanations. Two years after her shift into a "sense of unity", Segal relapsed into the uncomfortable state of constant anxiety she had first experienced. At this point she returned to exploring psychological themes from her childhood which included recovered memories of abuse and persistent migraines. Shortly thereafter, in 1997, Segal's health began rapidly deteriorating, and she was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. She died two months later that year, leaving many questions about the root cause of her experience unanswered. - Wikipedia
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 8:02:00 GMT -5
Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. You are saying exactly what SDP is saying, that there is a false sense of self. How can that be? There is a real sense of self which isn't lost after THE realization which is Self realization. After SR this limited self and ego are in unity with an expanded sense of unboundedness. The infinite doesn't get realized. Awareness doesn't get realized. It is the ego that gets realized and which recognizes that it has the same value as the infinite. Jiva = Atman = Brahman Clearly it is the personal aspect which proclaims, "I am awake" as Buddha did on the road when he was asked by a passing stranger to identify himself. I have never agreed nor will I ever agree with those who say there is no one here to be enlightened. When I read someone say that it is consciousness that is typing I just wince.😀 I'm not interested in satoris because they are insights. They're just spiritual experiences. You might refer to one of them as A realization but one of them or many of them are not THE realization when all dissolves into a spontaneous flow of life in unity, whether it is temporary or permanent. It doesn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 9:12:46 GMT -5
Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. You are saying exactly what SDP is saying, that there is a false sense of self. How can that be? There is a real sense of self which isn't lost after THE realization which is Self realization. After SR this limited self and ego are in unity with an expanded sense of unboundedness. The infinite doesn't get realized. Awareness doesn't get realized. It is the ego that gets realized and which recognizes that it has the same value as the infinite. Jiva = Atman = Brahman Clearly it is the personal aspect which proclaims, "I am awake" as Buddha did on the road when he was asked by a passing stranger to identify himself. I have never agreed nor will I ever agree with those who say there is no one here to be enlightened. When I read someone say that it is consciousness that is typing I just wince.😀 I'm not interested in satoris because they are insights. They're just spiritual experiences. You might refer to one of them as A realization but one of them or many of them are not THE realization when all dissolves into a spontaneous flow of life in unity, whether it is temporary or permanent. It doesn't matter.That's another change in your understanding. These forums obviously are doing you some good.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 11, 2020 9:20:23 GMT -5
The best description I've read re: 'apprehending the Infinite' is from Suzanne Segal. Not sure if you remember. I can post some links if you don't. This is your best example of someone apprehending the infinite? Read what I wrote. I said description, not example. Which means her life story is of no relevance here. Segal is actually a rather odd case. But her descriptions of what we are pointing to are one of the best you can find in books.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 9:28:27 GMT -5
This is your best example of someone apprehending the infinite? Read what I wrote. I said description, not example. Which means her life story is of no relevance here. Segal is actually a rather odd case. But her descriptions of what we are pointing to are one of the best you can find in books. Do you have a good quote or two that illustrates that? I haven't read her book.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 11, 2020 9:33:41 GMT -5
Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. You are saying exactly what SDP is saying, that there is a false sense of self. How can that be? There is a real sense of self which isn't lost after THE realization which is Self realization. After SR this limited self and ego are in unity with an expanded sense of unboundedness. The infinite doesn't get realized. Awareness doesn't get realized. It is the ego that gets realized and which recognizes that it has the same value as the infinite. Jiva = Atman = Brahman Clearly it is the personal aspect which proclaims, "I am awake" as Buddha did on the road when he was asked by a passing stranger to identify himself. I have never agreed nor will I ever agree with those who say there is no one here to be enlightened. When I read someone say that it is consciousness that is typing I just wince.😀 I'm not interested in satoris because they are insights. They're just spiritual experiences. You might refer to one of them as A realization but one of them or many of them are not THE realization when all dissolves into a spontaneous flow of life in unity, whether it is temporary or permanent. It doesn't matter. I don't really disagree with you re: ego. But the story you have been telling, that's only half the story or half the truth. And only knowing have the story and clinging to half truths can be dangerous business. You see, if NS doesn't result in seeing thru the false sense of self then it's very likely that what we have as a result is a spiritual ego with a literal god complex.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 10:04:44 GMT -5
I don't really disagree with you re: ego. But the story you have been telling, that's only half the story or half the truth. And only knowing have the story and clinging to half truths can be dangerous business. You see, if NS doesn't result in seeing thru the false sense of self then it's very likely that what we have as a result is a spiritual ego with a literal god complex. The whole story is that there is nothing but the Self and there is nothing that is not the Self, but it's only a story until it's realized. There is no false sense of self. The falsity is in mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are. That's not the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 10:38:28 GMT -5
It was an after thought as said .. I didn't recollect that sense at all .. It was simply a thought that came once I AM returned . I mean WW3 could of happened while I AM was absent and it wouldn't of mattered would it .. I can however only imply that once returned . There is only the thought post realization, so how can there be anything to recollect? There is only the now thought, so if there was no thought, there cannot be anything to recollect .. How did you determine that I Am was absent, or that there was nothing to recollect? biblehub.com/genesis/3-11.htm
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Post by enigma on Jan 11, 2020 11:25:29 GMT -5
How did you determine that I Am was absent, or that there was nothing to recollect? Again this is something that I have spoken about a dozen times now but to refresh your memory you know when you were absent the moment your are aware of I AM.I have spoken about the comparison had of self and no self, mind and no mind and waking up from a nights sleep to be awakened to the waking world . You know you have been asleep the moment you are awake . It's that simple . The difference however in what I have been speaking about is that when I AM is absent what you are is still present . You are that . This differs from waking up knowing you were asleep because there is no awareness of what you are being present when you are asleep (generally speaking). This is why I asked Andy when he was knocked unconscious was there the awareness of what you are present? If it is just a blank and no awareness had then it can relate to the mind-body mechanism protecting Andy from going into shock. This is why near death experiences can be a blessing or a curse, this is why Suzanne Segal became fearful of her experiences had . Out of body stuff and near death experiences are mindful still .. Self realisation as I see it or beyond I AM isn't .. This is why I have suggested to recollect what was experienced in these times . It will reveal the answer, or at the very least in part . I AM is the sense of existence. There will be nothing to recall from when there was no sense of existence.
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