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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2020 16:41:44 GMT -5
I don't think it's one and done Definitely not in most cases. There have been a few rare souls who got the whole thing in one big blast, but that list is very very short.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 4:03:33 GMT -5
I don't think it's one and done Probably not, and it's why one man's practice is another man's integration.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 18, 2020 7:58:22 GMT -5
Then what was realized? Or, was your earlier knowing intellectual and the final SR direct? Or was the final 'realization' an experience? It doesn't sound like an experience; it sounds like a shift to a different way of being, and that's one more reason why I think the realization/experience either/or distinction is lacking something essential. Consider these three scenarios: 1. The Buddha. From the historical record it appears that he got the whole shebang via one huge CC. He was meditating under a tree early in the morning, looked up at the planet Venus, the space between himself and Venus collapsed (reality as he had known it disintegrated), and he woke up. His existential questions were resolved, and he walked around for 44 years telling other people how to discover what he had discovered. I think we can assume that he lived in what Advaitists call SS for the rest of his life. The CC was both an experience and an event that shifted his understanding and also his way of life. 2. Paul Morgan-Somers. The teenager was kicking a soccer ball around, felt drawn to sit down on his back porch, and fell into a state of unity-consciousness that never changed, and resulted in the same state of SS as the Buddha. He does not refer to that event as a CC, and does not talk about reality disintegrating or any of the usual kensho/CC type stuff. He apparently had no interest in understanding what had happened to him. Rather, he simply lived his life in a state of SS/unity consciousness. When he gives talks, unlike the Buddha, he doesn't try to explain anything or tell people how to discover what he discovered because he didn't meditate or do anything prior to what happened to him. IOW, he knows that he didn't follow any kind of spiritual path that led him to SS. 3. Ramana: As a teenager he had a sudden thought about death, confronted the issue with a form of self inquiry, and discovered the truth in an instant. He left home, sat in samadhi for many years in a state of bliss and didn't even talk to people for several years. He later read religious texts and advised people to do self inquiry in order to discover what he had discovered. It seems clear that he lived in a state of SS and engaged in little or no mind talk. In all three cases, there was a shift from what most of us think of as "the concensus trance state" to a state of clarity and flow, which is distinguished as SS. Were these shifts experiences or realizations? In the first case, a CC, which I consider an event, resulted in realizations, but also a shift to a different way of being and different state of mind.In the second case, one moment the guy was like any other teenager, and the next moment he became one-with THIS, and that never changed. No CC, and no particular realization; just a monumental shift. In the third case, diaper guy was an ordinary teenager, and a realization led to a complete shift in what he understood and how he lived. It seems clear from reviewing world spiritual literature focused on ND that the shift occurs most easily in young people who haven't yet lived too long in their heads. The older people get, and the more attached that they become to various ideas, the more likely it is that one or more realizations will be necessary for freedom and understanding to occur. Tolle was suddenly catapulted into a state of flow by one question, but he subsequently wanted to understand what had happened to him. Morgan-Somers was catapulted into a state of flow, but never needed to understand how it happened or why. It seems to me that the most common attribute of everyone who discovers his/her unity with the Infinite is a life lived in a state of SS. How they get there varies enormously, but the end result is the same--they discover the Infinite, discover that what they are is one-with THAT, and live their lives in a state of acceptance and equanimity. Along the way they may have various experiences and various realizations or, like Morgan-Somers, neither, but the end result is the same. A shift to a different way of being occurs, and that's all that seems to matter when looked at from 30,000 feet.
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Post by shadowplay on Jan 18, 2020 10:41:27 GMT -5
Or was the final 'realization' an experience? It doesn't sound like an experience; it sounds like a shift to a different way of being, and that's one more reason why I think the realization/experience either/or distinction is lacking something essential. Yes. It’s not an experience as such but it is experiential in nature - it has an energetic, felt-sense, ‘expansive’ quality to it. A realisation without this experiential component is essentially an intellectual understanding.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 18, 2020 11:53:33 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like an experience; it sounds like a shift to a different way of being, and that's one more reason why I think the realization/experience either/or distinction is lacking something essential. Yes. It’s not an experience as such but it is experiential in nature - it has an energetic, felt-sense, ‘expansive’ quality to it. A realisation without this experiential component is essentially an intellectual understanding. Agreed.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 18, 2020 11:54:52 GMT -5
Probably not, and it's why one man's practice is another man's integration. My dad took me to a TM seminar in 1972, and my secret word was "Om" , but I quickly lost interest in the practice.. Also around that time I had a few 'out of body' experiences. There was no body, only awareness. But I had curiosity, and I was looking for something.. but there wasn't anything, anywhere. And a few years later, while under the influence of lsd, I understood Oneness, if only briefly. And then a few years ago I had a realization which quieted my mind. I guess its an integration, but who cares, I have dog poop to clean up! And I just finished mudding some sheetrock!
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Post by zendancer on Jan 18, 2020 13:55:51 GMT -5
And I just finished mudding some sheetrock! You could just hire subs, you're not getting any younger you know. I know, but it's still fun! It may be proof that what my friends in this business tell me is true, "Construction causes brain damage."
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2020 14:13:24 GMT -5
Or was the final 'realization' an experience? It doesn't sound like an experience; it sounds like a shift to a different way of being, and that's one more reason why I think the realization/experience either/or distinction is lacking something essential. Consider these three scenarios: 1. The Buddha. From the historical record it appears that he got the whole shebang via one huge CC. He was meditating under a tree early in the morning, looked up at the planet Venus, the space between himself and Venus collapsed (reality as he had known it disintegrated), and he woke up. His existential questions were resolved, and he walked around for 44 years telling other people how to discover what he had discovered. I think we can assume that he lived in what Advaitists call SS for the rest of his life. The CC was both an experience and an event that shifted his understanding and also his way of life. 2. Paul Morgan-Somers. The teenager was kicking a soccer ball around, felt drawn to sit down on his back porch, and fell into a state of unity-consciousness that never changed, and resulted in the same state of SS as the Buddha. He does not refer to that event as a CC, and does not talk about reality disintegrating or any of the usual kensho/CC type stuff. He apparently had no interest in understanding what had happened to him. Rather, he simply lived his life in a state of SS/unity consciousness. When he gives talks, unlike the Buddha, he doesn't try to explain anything or tell people how to discover what he discovered because he didn't meditate or do anything prior to what happened to him. IOW, he knows that he didn't follow any kind of spiritual path that led him to SS. 3. Ramana: As a teenager he had a sudden thought about death, confronted the issue with a form of self inquiry, and discovered the truth in an instant. He left home, sat in samadhi for many years in a state of bliss and didn't even talk to people for several years. He later read religious texts and advised people to do self inquiry in order to discover what he had discovered. It seems clear that he lived in a state of SS and engaged in little or no mind talk. In all three cases, there was a shift from what most of us think of as "the concensus trance state" to a state of clarity and flow, which is distinguished as SS. Were these shifts experiences or realizations? In the first case, a CC, which I consider an event, resulted in realizations, but also a shift to a different way of being and different state of mind.In the second case, one moment the guy was like any other teenager, and the next moment he became one-with THIS, and that never changed. No CC, and no particular realization; just a monumental shift. In the third case, diaper guy was an ordinary teenager, and a realization led to a complete shift in what he understood and how he lived. It seems clear from reviewing world spiritual literature focused on ND that the shift occurs most easily in young people who haven't yet lived too long in their heads. The older people get, and the more attached that they become to various ideas, the more likely it is that one or more realizations will be necessary for freedom and understanding to occur. Tolle was suddenly catapulted into a state of flow by one question, but he subsequently wanted to understand what had happened to him. Morgan-Somers was catapulted into a state of flow, but never needed to understand how it happened or why. It seems to me that the most common attribute of everyone who discovers his/her unity with the Infinite is a life lived in a state of SS. How they get there varies enormously, but the end result is the same--they discover the Infinite, discover that what they are is one-with THAT, and live their lives in a state of acceptance and equanimity. Along the way they may have various experiences and various realizations or, like Morgan-Somers, neither, but the end result is the same. A shift to a different way of being occurs, and that's all that seems to matter when looked at from 30,000 feet. It's all too complicated for me.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2020 14:16:48 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like an experience; it sounds like a shift to a different way of being, and that's one more reason why I think the realization/experience either/or distinction is lacking something essential. Yes. It’s not an experience as such but it is experiential in nature - it has an energetic, felt-sense, ‘expansive’ quality to it. A realisation without this experiential component is essentially an intellectual understanding. No, It's not. I might be too eager to dismiss experience, but it's not time to dismiss realization.
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Post by shadowplay on Jan 18, 2020 14:44:03 GMT -5
Yes. It’s not an experience as such but it is experiential in nature - it has an energetic, felt-sense, ‘expansive’ quality to it. A realisation without this experiential component is essentially an intellectual understanding. No, It's not. I might be too eager to dismiss experience, but it's not time to dismiss realization. Yes, it is. I’m not dismissing realisation at all. I’m pointing out that it has an experiential quality to it - precisely in the sense that it’s more than conceptual. If you feel that it doesn’t then tell me what the difference is between your ‘sense’ of realisation and an intellectual understanding?
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2020 14:51:03 GMT -5
No, It's not. I might be too eager to dismiss experience, but it's not time to dismiss realization. Yes, it is. I’m not dismissing realisation at all. I’m pointing out that it has an experiential quality to it - precisely in the sense that it’s more than conceptual. If you feel that it doesn’t then tell me what the difference is between your ‘sense’ of realisation and an intellectual understanding? Realization is not a sense, nor does it have anything to do with mind. Mind must be silent for a realization to occur. Experience, OTOH, includes mind by definition. There is no such thing as a mindless experience. What mind comes away with from that experience is anybody's guess.
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Post by shadowplay on Jan 18, 2020 15:25:11 GMT -5
Yes, it is. I’m not dismissing realisation at all. I’m pointing out that it has an experiential quality to it - precisely in the sense that it’s more than conceptual. If you feel that it doesn’t then tell me what the difference is between your ‘sense’ of realisation and an intellectual understanding? Realization is not a sense, nor does it have anything to do with mind. Mind must be silent for a realization to occur. Experience, OTOH, includes mind by definition. There is no such thing as a mindless experience. What mind comes away with from that experience is anybody's guess. Realisation is an ever-fresh, present moment gnosis - a non-conceptual sense of life simply as it is. Realisation does not happen TO the mind but happens VIA the mind. There’s no such thing as a realisation that does not involve the mind (mind in its broadest sense.)
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 18, 2020 15:40:29 GMT -5
Realization is not a sense, nor does it have anything to do with mind. Mind must be silent for a realization to occur. Experience, OTOH, includes mind by definition. There is no such thing as a mindless experience. What mind comes away with from that experience is anybody's guess. Realisation is an ever-fresh, present moment gnosis - a non-conceptual sense of life simply as it is. Realisation does not happen TO the mind but happens VIA the mind. There’s no such thing as a realisation that does not involve the mind (mind in its broadest sense.) E. appears to be speaking about the actual event itself - a sudden realization visited upon one from out of nowhere - and I see you, shadowplay, talking more about the effects/after-effects of realization. Yes?
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Post by zendancer on Jan 18, 2020 16:18:59 GMT -5
Yes, it is. I’m not dismissing realisation at all. I’m pointing out that it has an experiential quality to it - precisely in the sense that it’s more than conceptual. If you feel that it doesn’t then tell me what the difference is between your ‘sense’ of realisation and an intellectual understanding? Realization is not a sense, nor does it have anything to do with mind. Mind must be silent for a realization to occur. Experience, OTOH, includes mind by definition. There is no such thing as a mindless experience. What mind comes away with from that experience is anybody's guess. Realizations inform mind, and without mind becoming informed about what's going on, what would cause life to be lived any differently than before? Life is lived differently after realizations because various illusions that previously influenced one's way of life are seen through and that changes how one responds to whatever is happening. For some people realizations are what eventually put mind to rest (non-abidance in mind) and allow one to feel at-one with the oneness of "what is." In short, there is a difference between "a realization" and the result of a realization. The former is an event, and the latter is a way of being.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 18, 2020 16:46:44 GMT -5
there is a difference between "a realization" and the result of a realization. Wouldn't knowing the difference require a Self reference?
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