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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 25, 2019 0:35:26 GMT -5
LOA! When you take a good look at dis identification, what that means for the emotional body, and how you may be attracted or repelled by others, or sharing vision with like minded people, there is a book to be written on manifestation, and it might include a chapter on living in a cave. But if doesn't include a chapter on chopping off ego's head only a sucker would want to read it. Ego is a tricky bastage and is the most direct and obvious expression of the existential illusion. But, what would fight ego, other than ego, itself? By kill ego, I really just meant being conscious of its inner workings, like repression, projection, and compensation. Didn’t you like my definition of ego including a pathological form of self denial?
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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 25, 2019 0:45:07 GMT -5
Your premise seems to be that you are awake and that awakening has nothing to do with becoming conscious of emotional errors or dealing with personality addictions because you have no interest in these things and have never processed an emotion. That's an interesting premise, and so I'm not surprised by your lack of rezzing. These posts are essentially about becoming conscious. I might say a primary awakening could precede the process of becoming a more conscious person, but of course the awareness itself is unbecoming the apparent mind. Your mind has created its facade at that point (that there is no mind and hence no becoming conscious necessary), and this is why your mind has externalized its repression mechanism by attempting to discredit me or write me off as someone who over complicates things. You still have a lot of emotional baggage, like Maharaj says, you have the option to put it down. Any given human body mind can be thought of in terms of a machine, and one story about that machine is that it expresses four billion years of the environment encoding itself in the media of DNA. The specifics of that story aren't important to what I'm writing here, just the point that the machinery has quite a bit of momentum behind it. Awakening is first and foremost about the distinction between what it is that we really are, which is definitely not that machine. But the fact remains, that to have what everyone can agree on is a living, breathing experience of human being, the wheels have to turn. This is a fact that no realization can transcend. Some people will be interested in the details of the machinery, some won't, and really, it's not only all good, in existential terms, the lack of interest thereof is quite meaningless. The flip side, of course, is that insight into how the machine works is definitely an advantage in any potential process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of our own minds. While this isn't the only road to Rome, it's got quite a few tread marks on it. I mean, not being interested in your own mind can often translate into interested in staying within personality addictions and identification. While you may not be the machine, the machine is an expression of your very core. Meaning, you aren’t not the machine either, depending on what framework we’re in. Conscious conditioning functions more efficiently, so not being interested in conditioning and most pointedly how one remains unconscious is actually a form of mental illness. It’s not all good, unless headless mothers is good. In fact, it’s mostly bad.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 25, 2019 0:56:04 GMT -5
Your premise seems to be that you are awake and that awakening has nothing to do with becoming conscious of emotional errors or dealing with personality addictions . That's correct, awakening has nothing whatsoever to do with that because it is not about fixing your personality, but realizing that what you are is prior to and not dependent on whatever personality you manifest. The workshop approach is to tend to every single individual leaf on the tree whereas the path of spirituality, of self-inquiry, is to simply tend to the root of the tree and the leaves will take care of themselves. Consciousness of how your mind functions unconsciously changes how it functions. Leaving your mind to function unconsciously through projection repression and self seeking has nothing to do with awakening. That’s called staying asleep. That you’ve seemingly never noticed a projection or emotional residue from your past doesn’t mean you never will.
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 25, 2019 2:02:32 GMT -5
That's correct, awakening has nothing whatsoever to do with that because it is not about fixing your personality, but realizing that what you are is prior to and not dependent on whatever personality you manifest. The workshop approach is to tend to every single individual leaf on the tree whereas the path of spirituality, of self-inquiry, is to simply tend to the root of the tree and the leaves will take care of themselves. Consciousness of how your mind functions unconsciously changes how it functions. Leaving your mind to function unconsciously through projection repression and self seeking has nothing to do with awakening. That’s called staying asleep. That you’ve seemingly never noticed a projection or emotional residue from your past doesn’t mean you never will. How can you be conscious of how your mind functions unconsciously? What does that even mean and what possible use could it be? No, the goal is to go back to the source and know that you are the source and that you are unbounded and unlimited. That is what it is to be fully awake. To rest in the natural state is the end of suffering. You can put your psychoanalytical toys away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 5:42:22 GMT -5
Consciousness of how your mind functions unconsciously changes how it functions. Leaving your mind to function unconsciously through projection repression and self seeking has nothing to do with awakening. That’s called staying asleep. That you’ve seemingly never noticed a projection or emotional residue from your past doesn’t mean you never will. How can you be conscious of how your mind functions unconsciously? What does that even mean and what possible use could it be? No, the goal is to go back to the source and know that you are the source and that you are unbounded and unlimited. That is what it is to be fully awake. To rest in the natural state is the end of suffering. You can put your psychoanalytical toys away. It is impossible to know anything other than you are. The claim of being 'unbounded and unlimited' is being made by the bound and the limited. There isn't anything else that is poor enough to want to make such a claim.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 6:00:58 GMT -5
Your premise seems to be that you are awake and that awakening has nothing to do with becoming conscious of emotional errors or dealing with personality addictions . That's correct, awakening has nothing whatsoever to do with that because it is not about fixing your personality, but realizing that what you are is prior to and not dependent on whatever personality you manifest. The workshop approach is to tend to every single individual leaf on the tree whereas the path of spirituality, of self-inquiry, is to simply tend to the root of the tree and the leaves will take care of themselves.The health of the leaves will depend on the root's access to water. The absorption of fresh water daily is an absolute necessity and isn't what can be tended to, you're either grounded in Heaven or you're not. The feeding of the tree will depend upon a constant relationship with the rotation of the Sun. During the winter months these processes only slow down, they never actually stop. (Non-gardeners need not apply themselves to the analogy.)
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 25, 2019 6:25:42 GMT -5
How can you be conscious of how your mind functions unconsciously? What does that even mean and what possible use could it be? No, the goal is to go back to the source and know that you are the source and that you are unbounded and unlimited. That is what it is to be fully awake. To rest in the natural state is the end of suffering. You can put your psychoanalytical toys away. It is impossible to know anything other than you are. The claim of being 'unbounded and unlimited' is being made by the bound and the limited. There isn't anything else that is poor enough to want to make such a claim. Somehow the limited can know the unlimited otherwise there would be no such thing as spiritual scripture and gurus.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2019 8:49:03 GMT -5
It is impossible to know anything other than you are. The claim of being 'unbounded and unlimited' is being made by the bound and the limited. There isn't anything else that is poor enough to want to make such a claim. Somehow the limited can know the unlimited otherwise there would be no such thing as spiritual scripture and gurus. I would put it this way: somehow the Unlimited can know the Unlimited via what is imagined to be the limited, but isn't.
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 25, 2019 8:55:10 GMT -5
Somehow the limited can know the unlimited otherwise there would be no such thing as spiritual scripture and gurus. I would put it this way: somehow the Unlimited can know the Unlimited via what is imagined to be the limited, but isn't. Yeah, that works. One only has to look at the vast volume of spiritual writings to see the infinite ways of expressing this. Those such as Rumi come to mind.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2019 8:59:45 GMT -5
Hey ZD. So, from what I remember, your take is that waking up essentially entails shifting attention away from thinking, which is to say, away from the mind that could have an emotional complex, until it is realized that the mind one has shifted attention away from isn't 'you'. I bark at this. Let me ask you, father to father, do you believe it's possible that your behavior through the developmental years of your daughter's life could have caused even one emotional injury which she would need to gain consciousness of? Or is your position that regardless of the experience, if there is suffering, emotions need not be addressed, the consciousness beyond the emotions needs to be realized? As an example, let's say a man removes his conditional love from his daughter (through showing less appreciation, less affection, etc.) every time his daughter demonstrates romantic interest in a man. If that daughter grows to be 50, and is still single, and still looking for her father's approval every time she enters the courting stage, do you think she might need to gain consciousness of what true love is and how in error her father is/was? Or is it actually your opinion that shifting attention away from thought will bring her freedom from the error caused by her father's behavior, because that's a freedom from the world and her problem is a world problem? My point is her problem is a Daddy problem, and an untrue belief about what love is caused by Daddy. In this scenario, would you agree she could 'gain consciousness' of this untrue belief, and that in doing so, an emotion could release? The truth is beyond personal stories and also beyond ideas, beliefs, theories, and opinions.
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Post by laughter on Nov 25, 2019 10:37:41 GMT -5
Ego is a tricky bastage and is the most direct and obvious expression of the existential illusion. But, what would fight ego, other than ego, itself? By kill ego, I really just meant being conscious of its inner workings, like repression, projection, and compensation. Didn’t you like my definition of ego including a pathological form of self denial? Yes, I thought it was interesting.
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Post by laughter on Nov 25, 2019 10:51:06 GMT -5
Any given human body mind can be thought of in terms of a machine, and one story about that machine is that it expresses four billion years of the environment encoding itself in the media of DNA. The specifics of that story aren't important to what I'm writing here, just the point that the machinery has quite a bit of momentum behind it. Awakening is first and foremost about the distinction between what it is that we really are, which is definitely not that machine. But the fact remains, that to have what everyone can agree on is a living, breathing experience of human being, the wheels have to turn. This is a fact that no realization can transcend. Some people will be interested in the details of the machinery, some won't, and really, it's not only all good, in existential terms, the lack of interest thereof is quite meaningless. The flip side, of course, is that insight into how the machine works is definitely an advantage in any potential process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of our own minds. While this isn't the only road to Rome, it's got quite a few tread marks on it. I mean, not being interested in your own mind can often translate into interested in staying within personality addictions and identification. While you may not be the machine, the machine is an expression of your very core. Meaning, you aren’t not the machine either, depending on what framework we’re in. Conscious conditioning functions more efficiently, so not being interested in conditioning and most pointedly how one remains unconscious is actually a form of mental illness. It’s not all good, unless headless mothers is good. In fact, it’s mostly bad. Sure I understand how the machine, to put it very broadly: reflects an "inner state". Now, I'm not saying that people suffering from these sorts of addictions you describe don't hide from this as you say, by remaining disinterested in what's going on with their own mind. But, conversely, not everyone who's disinterested in the machine is in this situation. Certainly, people denying they have a mind or an ego or attaching to an idea of infinity have to play that kind of game, but not everyone pointing to the unbounded is a player, and I know you understand the existential truth pointed to by nonduality. Personally, I'm interested in these processes you write about and how they spin out both before and after realizing that truth, but I can understand how someone else might not be. There can be as many reasons for that disinterest as there are people, and I can't disagree with the notion that any improvements to the person aren't the point of the existential truth. While these improvements might be rather dramatic, and while it's deep unconsciousness that is the relative cause of deep suffering, there's a .. bigger picture. But, to be clear, as well as sharing your interest in the topic of becoming conscious, I'd opine that the process can certainly continue after existential seeking is over.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2019 12:09:58 GMT -5
I mean, not being interested in your own mind can often translate into interested in staying within personality addictions and identification. While you may not be the machine, the machine is an expression of your very core. Meaning, you aren’t not the machine either, depending on what framework we’re in. Conscious conditioning functions more efficiently, so not being interested in conditioning and most pointedly how one remains unconscious is actually a form of mental illness. It’s not all good, unless headless mothers is good. In fact, it’s mostly bad. Sure I understand how the machine, to put it very broadly: reflects an "inner state". Now, I'm not saying that people suffering from these sorts of addictions you describe don't hide from this as you say, by remaining disinterested in what's going on with their own mind. But, conversely, not everyone who's disinterested in the machine is in this situation. Certainly, people denying they have a mind or an ego or attaching to an idea of infinity have to play that kind of game, but not everyone pointing to the unbounded is a player, and I know you understand the existential truth pointed to by nonduality. Personally, I'm interested in these processes you write about and how they spin out both before and after realizing that truth, but I can understand how someone else might not be. There can be as many reasons for that disinterest as there are people, and I can't disagree with the notion that any improvements to the person aren't the point of the existential truth. While these improvements might be rather dramatic, and while it's deep unconsciousness that is the relative cause of deep suffering, there's a .. bigger picture. But, to be clear, as well as sharing your interest in the topic of becoming conscious, I'd opine that the process can certainly continue after existential seeking is over. Yes, to keep it simple, everyone's mileage will vary, and one size does not fit all. Some people wake up spontaneously without doing anything whereas other people spend decades meditating and pursuing all kinds of different activities that they think will resolve their existential questions or personal issues. Some people have multiple traumatic experiences in childhood and others do not. Some people are genetically inclined to be happy regardless of their circumstances and other people are genetically inclined to be morose (according to some research I recently read about). The possible variations of genetic and cultural influences is infinite, and every story of awakening is somewhat different. Accepting that there are many different paths that have successfully led to Rome is another matter, as is accepting that one size does not fit all. I've mentioned this example once before, but I once attended a workshop where everyone was asked to list all of their resentments. After the session leader saw that I wasn't writing anything down, he asked why. I told him that I had no resentments about anyone or anything. He quickly said that I was in denial. There was no point in arguing with the guy because it was obvious that he believed all humans are filled with resentments. I thought, "Wow, I wish that you could have met one of my grandfathers." My mom's dad wasn't enlightened, but he was the happiest guy imaginable, and I didn't fully appreciate his sage-like qualities until many years after he had died. He never worried about anything, was always relaxed and in a good humor, never got mad about anything, laughed all the time, and enjoyed everyone he met. I'm sure that the workshop leader would never have believed me if I had told him about my grandfather.
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Post by laughter on Nov 25, 2019 13:56:51 GMT -5
Sure I understand how the machine, to put it very broadly: reflects an "inner state". Now, I'm not saying that people suffering from these sorts of addictions you describe don't hide from this as you say, by remaining disinterested in what's going on with their own mind. But, conversely, not everyone who's disinterested in the machine is in this situation. Certainly, people denying they have a mind or an ego or attaching to an idea of infinity have to play that kind of game, but not everyone pointing to the unbounded is a player, and I know you understand the existential truth pointed to by nonduality. Personally, I'm interested in these processes you write about and how they spin out both before and after realizing that truth, but I can understand how someone else might not be. There can be as many reasons for that disinterest as there are people, and I can't disagree with the notion that any improvements to the person aren't the point of the existential truth. While these improvements might be rather dramatic, and while it's deep unconsciousness that is the relative cause of deep suffering, there's a .. bigger picture. But, to be clear, as well as sharing your interest in the topic of becoming conscious, I'd opine that the process can certainly continue after existential seeking is over. Yes, to keep it simple, everyone's mileage will vary, and one size does not fit all. Some people wake up spontaneously without doing anything whereas other people spend decades meditating and pursuing all kinds of different activities that they think will resolve their existential questions or personal issues. Some people have multiple traumatic experiences in childhood and others do not. Some people are genetically inclined to be happy regardless of their circumstances and other people are genetically inclined to be morose (according to some research I recently read about). The possible variations of genetic and cultural influences is infinite, and every story of awakening is somewhat different. Accepting that there are many different paths that have successfully led to Rome is another matter, as is accepting that one size does not fit all. I've mentioned this example once before, but I once attended a workshop where everyone was asked to list all of their resentments. After the session leader saw that I wasn't writing anything down, he asked why. I told him that I had no resentments about anyone or anything. He quickly said that I was in denial. There was no point in arguing with the guy because it was obvious that he believed all humans are filled with resentments. I thought, "Wow, I wish that you could have met one of my grandfathers." My mom's dad wasn't enlightened, but he was the happiest guy imaginable, and I didn't fully appreciate his sage-like qualities until many years after he had died. He never worried about anything, was always relaxed and in a good humor, never got mad about anything, laughed all the time, and enjoyed everyone he met. I'm sure that the workshop leader would never have believed me if I had told him about my grandfather. Your grandfather sounds like one hell of a man ZD. Kinda' person we would all be so fortunate to meet. I can honestly say I've never met anyone like him, but - and here's where becoming conscious of mind content comes into the picture - I probably wouldn't have recognized him for what he was for most of my life. The little-head-rational-guy tended to notice and pay more attention to the negative. As time goes on, and the mind opens, the sheer scope of the variegated possible human experience is as awe-inspiring as the scale of the cosmos was (and still is). And, when the capacity to compare one's experience with others isn't driven by the existential trick, it becomes a capacity to appreciate just how amazing some of the things other people can and have done with their lives.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 26, 2019 0:59:04 GMT -5
Consciousness of how your mind functions unconsciously changes how it functions. Leaving your mind to function unconsciously through projection repression and self seeking has nothing to do with awakening. That’s called staying asleep. That you’ve seemingly never noticed a projection or emotional residue from your past doesn’t mean you never will. How can you be conscious of how your mind functions unconsciously? What does that even mean and what possible use could it be? No, the goal is to go back to the source and know that you are the source and that you are unbounded and unlimited. That is what it is to be fully awake. To rest in the natural state is the end of suffering. You can put your psychoanalytical toys away. You can become conscious of your mind, or more pointedly in this case, the person you appear as, by simply noticing it from the formless dimension. As an example, every time someone experiences rejection, they may simultaneously desire to meditate as a means of avoiding feeling rejected. The feeling of rejection isn’t conscious, but the need to get away from the feeling dominates the behavior. Making the need to get away from the feeling, conscious (meaning that people can actually avoid feelings without realizing that’s what they’re doing) can allow expression of the feeling, such that the need to escape no longer arises. What a great benefit! Hopefully that answers your question
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