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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 9:38:56 GMT -5
How does your "heart" know? How do you know things with your "heart"? In other words you know things with your heart often before logic shows you how and sometimes logic can't, it falls short. KNOWING is not through feeling or thinking. Its something different. You can know. But you can't know whether other one is real because they are appearing. The appearance behind the actuality can't known. If Enigma comes here he will explain you in a better way but unfortunately he is not showing up here now.
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Post by andrew on Oct 6, 2019 9:42:25 GMT -5
''Please, don't talk to me about 'Pure Awareness' or 'Dwelling in the Absolute'. I want to see how you treat your partner, your kids, your parents, your friends, your precious body. Please, don't lecture me about 'the illusion of the separate self' or how you achieved permanent bliss in just 7 days. I want to feel a genuine warmth radiating from your heart.I want to hear how well you listen, take in information that doesn't fit your personal philosophy. I want to see how you deal with people who disagree with you. Don't tell me how awakened you are, how free you are from ego. I want to know you beneath the words. I want to know what you're like when troubles befall you. If you can fully allow your pain and not pretend to be invulnerable. If you can feel your anger yet not step into violence. If you can grant safe passage to your sorrow yet not be its slave. If you can feel your shame and not shame others: If you can x up, and admit it. If you can say 'sorry', and really mean it. If you can be fully human in your glorious divinity. Don't talk to me about your spirituality, friend. I'm really not that interested. I only want to meet YOU. Know your precious heart. Know the beautiful human struggling for the light. Before 'the spiritual one'. Before all the clever words.'' - Jeff Foster I get Jeff's sentiment here, and I see the virtue in it. But there's also a self-contradictory tone that is both underlying the words and also very clear and out front in it's expression. On one hand, he's suggesting a higher standard for one's inner-state, but his stated disinterest about the spirituality of his straw man sounds to me quite a bit like contempt. One one hand, he wants to feel a genuine warmth from the other's heart, but in the next breath, he sneers at that other's "clever words". The conditioned nature of our lives is precisely what obscures the absolute boundless being that is common to every person, and it's not virtue or a warm heart or charitable actions that is the wellspring of our humanity, but, instead, the simple, subtle and universal fact of that commonality. What Jeff left out of his list was how he orients himself to those who he feels in opposition to, and in his poetry, he most certainly defines that opposition. I didn't pick up on the energy of sneering but what I feel he is offering, is a sort of 'remedy'for those lost in non-dual bullsh/t. In a sense, I see him offering an antidote, which would itself, not be of much relevance at all, without the poison. So I offered his words as a kind of interesting 'antidote' (in light of what Zaz said), but in truth, would never actually recommend anyone join his sessions, just as I would never recommend to anyone to join an Adya/Spira/etc session. If I see someone asking for help on twitter (there's lots asking these days), I offer a variety of very practical tools (e.g meditation, eft, cbd etc), never a learning experience (or one that is geared towards a 'realization').
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 6, 2019 9:43:38 GMT -5
How does your "heart" know? How do you know things with your "heart"? you can know directly the truth that happy defines unhappy and unhappy defines the happy. But unfortunately you can't know whether other one is real. You don't have any way Let's pretend for a second that what you are saying is some kind of knowledge. Now tell me what you are going to do with that knowledge.
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Post by andrew on Oct 6, 2019 9:45:57 GMT -5
In other words you know things with your heart often before logic shows you how and sometimes logic can't, it falls short. KNOWING is not through feeling or thinking. Its something different. You can know. But you can't know whether other one is real because they are appearing. The appearance behind the actuality can't known. If Enigma comes here he will explain you in a better way but unfortunately he is not showing up here now. I assure you he won't. E could be a genius, but there's no adequate, let alone good, way to explain nonsense. It's like wiping up a mess with a dirty cloth, it just creates bigger mess.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 9:51:21 GMT -5
In other words you know things with your heart often before logic shows you how and sometimes logic can't, it falls short. KNOWING is not through feeling or thinking. Its something different. You can know. But you can't know whether other one is real because they are appearing. The appearance behind the actuality can't known. If Enigma comes here he will explain you in a better way but unfortunately he is not showing up here now. I know I AM. But I can never get to that by reasoning. Your contention regarding others only "appearing" is pure logic. Others, seperate others, as a separate I, are illusory. But you have to be cautious when you say this and to whom you say this. This is where E and I part company.
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 6, 2019 9:51:40 GMT -5
In other words you know things with your heart often before logic shows you how and sometimes logic can't, it falls short. KNOWING is not through feeling or thinking. Its something different. You can know. But you can't know whether other one is real because they are appearing. The appearance behind the actuality can't known. If Enigma comes here he will explain you in a better way but unfortunately he is not showing up here now. Let's say it was your belief that your daughter who came running towards you with her arms open to greet you was real. Now let's say that the next day you have this incredible insight that you could not determine whether your daughter was real or whether she was a independent thinking consciousness and then she came running towards you with her arms open. Would you react any differently with this new knowledge and understanding?
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 6, 2019 9:54:57 GMT -5
Gopal, have you seen the movie AI? What if you bought an Android daughter. Do you think it would be possible to learn to love her?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 11:21:18 GMT -5
Who cares? I'll bet you're more concerned about the welfare of your lovely new daughter. I love her, I love the way she walks and I love the way she talks. But ultimately I don't know whether she is a self aware being. And what an amazing thing it is to clearly see that the arising and flow of love...that the sense of bonding.....experience of relationship itself, is not dependent upon such knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 12:24:11 GMT -5
I love her, I love the way she walks and I love the way she talks. But ultimately I don't know whether she is a self aware being. And what an amazing thing it is to clearly see that the arising and flow of love...that the sense of bonding.....experience of relationship itself, is not dependent upon such knowledge. It's not only that separation is an illusion, but the "distinctions" are also an illusion. There is no separate or distinct "I". It is also an illusion. Seeing that is love.
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2019 13:25:10 GMT -5
BTW saying consciousness creates the world is an ND topic, right? Seems to me that it might be, or it could be a philosophical or metaphysical topic. Depends
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2019 13:26:02 GMT -5
Just throw a fish at 'em. Alright, see. Now I know you're an inbreeder. "heh heh .. u got 'a prudy mouth .. heh heh"
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2019 13:41:37 GMT -5
I get Jeff's sentiment here, and I see the virtue in it. But there's also a self-contradictory tone that is both underlying the words and also very clear and out front in it's expression. On one hand, he's suggesting a higher standard for one's inner-state, but his stated disinterest about the spirituality of his straw man sounds to me quite a bit like contempt. One one hand, he wants to feel a genuine warmth from the other's heart, but in the next breath, he sneers at that other's "clever words". The conditioned nature of our lives is precisely what obscures the absolute boundless being that is common to every person, and it's not virtue or a warm heart or charitable actions that is the wellspring of our humanity, but, instead, the simple, subtle and universal fact of that commonality. What Jeff left out of his list was how he orients himself to those who he feels in opposition to, and in his poetry, he most certainly defines that opposition. Brilliant, you caught me.
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2019 13:51:57 GMT -5
KNOWING is not through feeling or thinking. Its something different. You can know. But you can't know whether other one is real because they are appearing. The appearance behind the actuality can't known. If Enigma comes here he will explain you in a better way but unfortunately he is not showing up here now. I know I AM. But I can never get to that by reasoning. Your contention regarding others only "appearing" is pure logic. Others, seperate others, as a separate I, are illusory. But you have to be cautious when you say this and to whom you say this. This is where E and I part company. I'd say that otherness isn't an illusion, but it's simply not what most people think it is, and I'm pretty sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know, and deeply.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 13:53:26 GMT -5
I get Jeff's sentiment here, and I see the virtue in it. But there's also a self-contradictory tone that is both underlying the words and also very clear and out front in it's expression. On one hand, he's suggesting a higher standard for one's inner-state, but his stated disinterest about the spirituality of his straw man sounds to me quite a bit like contempt. One one hand, he wants to feel a genuine warmth from the other's heart, but in the next breath, he sneers at that other's "clever words". The conditioned nature of our lives is precisely what obscures the absolute boundless being that is common to every person, and it's not virtue or a warm heart or charitable actions that is the wellspring of our humanity, but, instead, the simple, subtle and universal fact of that commonality. What Jeff left out of his list was how he orients himself to those who he feels in opposition to, and in his poetry, he most certainly defines that opposition. I didn't pick up on the energy of sneering but what I feel he is offering, is a sort of 'remedy'for those lost in non-dual bullsh/t. In a sense, I see him offering an antidote, which would itself, not be of much relevance at all, without the poison. So I offered his words as a kind of interesting 'antidote' (in light of what Zaz said), but in truth, would never actually recommend anyone join his sessions, just as I would never recommend to anyone to join an Adya/Spira/etc session. If I see someone asking for help on twitter (there's lots asking these days), I offer a variety of very practical tools (e.g meditation, eft, cbd etc), never a learning experience (or one that is geared towards a 'realization'). You're a kinder, gentler rendition of the absolute than me. I was cheering for the team and doing an "in your face" dance.
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2019 13:57:19 GMT -5
I get Jeff's sentiment here, and I see the virtue in it. But there's also a self-contradictory tone that is both underlying the words and also very clear and out front in it's expression. On one hand, he's suggesting a higher standard for one's inner-state, but his stated disinterest about the spirituality of his straw man sounds to me quite a bit like contempt. One one hand, he wants to feel a genuine warmth from the other's heart, but in the next breath, he sneers at that other's "clever words". The conditioned nature of our lives is precisely what obscures the absolute boundless being that is common to every person, and it's not virtue or a warm heart or charitable actions that is the wellspring of our humanity, but, instead, the simple, subtle and universal fact of that commonality. What Jeff left out of his list was how he orients himself to those who he feels in opposition to, and in his poetry, he most certainly defines that opposition. I didn't pick up on the energy of sneering but what I feel he is offering, is a sort of 'remedy'for those lost in non-dual bullsh/t. In a sense, I see him offering an antidote, which would itself, not be of much relevance at all, without the poison. So I offered his words as a kind of interesting 'antidote' (in light of what Zaz said), but in truth, would never actually recommend anyone join his sessions, just as I would never recommend to anyone to join an Adya/Spira/etc session. If I see someone asking for help on twitter (there's lots asking these days), I offer a variety of very practical tools (e.g meditation, eft, cbd etc), never a learning experience (or one that is geared towards a 'realization'). So, is the way you treat your friends who have an interest in nonduality to tell them that they're talking bullsh!t? Is that what's in your precious heart? Not all humans are struggling for the light.
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