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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 7:50:30 GMT -5
I was playing and introducing folks to apocalyptic sixties music. Question: In trying to persuade folks that cause and effect aren't real, aren't you defeating your own argument? Right. In my case, for the purpose of seeing if you might get lucky and I'd 'crack.'
Regarding your question: I'm not really 'trying' to persuade anyone, nor accomplish anything here....I'm talking about what its true. I'm under no delusion that someone is going to wake up 'because of' reading my words.
All sorts of behaviors happens in a given day that you could point to to say they are contradicting the assertion of no cause/effect.
Cause/effect appears in the story. The seeing that that is just an appearance, just part and parcel of the unfolding story, is transcendent of that.
Truth is, I can say that a thousand times and unless one actually sees beyond the story, he will not see it. Even if one were 'persuaded,' that would only be a conceptual grasp and not an actual realization of no cause/effect.
Nah.. i knew you wouldn't crack because of that silly song. Life though has much more poignant means for fracturing our intellectual positions. Though I grant it is possible yours is based on Self realization. I have no way of knowing. That knowledge isn't relevant to me however. But when you say you're not trying to persuade anyone it seems less than genuine. Aren't you trying to prove that certain folk are not SR with your arguments and isn't that evidence that on some level you're buying into the cause/effect story?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 30, 2019 8:57:03 GMT -5
Right. In my case, for the purpose of seeing if you might get lucky and I'd 'crack.' Regarding your question: I'm not really 'trying' to persuade anyone, nor accomplish anything here....I'm talking about what its true. I'm under no delusion that someone is going to wake up 'because of' reading my words.
All sorts of behaviors happens in a given day that you could point to to say they are contradicting the assertion of no cause/effect.
Cause/effect appears in the story. The seeing that that is just an appearance, just part and parcel of the unfolding story, is transcendent of that. Truth is, I can say that a thousand times and unless one actually sees beyond the story, he will not see it. Even if one were 'persuaded,' that would only be a conceptual grasp and not an actual realization of no cause/effect.
Nah.. i knew you wouldn't crack because of that silly song. Life though has much more poignant means for fracturing our intellectual positions. Though I grant it is possible yours is based on Self realization. I have no way of knowing. That knowledge isn't relevant to me however. But when you say you're not trying to persuade anyone it seems less than genuine. Aren't you trying to prove that certain folk are not SR with your arguments and isn't that evidence that on some level you're buying into the cause/effect story? Watch out! You might be triggering a text wall.
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Post by enigma on Jul 30, 2019 9:03:28 GMT -5
It most definitely IS included in the perfection, however, also included is the seeing that nothing in the story actually causes anything else in the story....that despite appearance, anything and everything remains possible and it not actually dependent upon a particular appearance preceding that.....that actually, the entire unfolding is a singular, unified movement, thus, I don't understand how one who has seen that can get into the whole "doing things to slow down global warming, action plan" or "science says this", beyond a certain depth.
My interests, whatever they are, ARE the singular unified movement, and your enjoyment of arguing is also that singular unified movement. She may be asking why there is not a correlation between insights and interests. It's similar to the sage behavior expectation discussion. In spite of the absence of causation within the dream, correlation remains in the larger context. The actions of THIS are unified by virtue of wholeness, and so there will be integrity within creation even in the absence of cause/effect or volition inside that creation. That integrity is the reason for the perfection that is seen. The correlation must be there whether or not it's recognized.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 30, 2019 9:28:26 GMT -5
My interests, whatever they are, ARE the singular unified movement, and your enjoyment of arguing is also that singular unified movement. She may be asking why there is not a correlation between insights and interests. It's similar to the sage behavior expectation discussion. In spite of the absence of causation within the dream, correlation remains in the larger context. The actions of THIS are unified by virtue of wholeness, and so there will be integrity within creation even in the absence of cause/effect or volition inside that creation. That integrity is the reason for the perfection that is seen. The correlation must be there whether or not it's recognized. People used to ask Ramana why he didn't leave Arunachula and get involved in social service. He remained silent. If he'd been a Zen Master, he might have raised his index finger in silence. Many people have asked Tolle what he plans to do with all the money his books and satsangs have generated. On most occasions he's answered, "I'm waiting to find out." Some sages have gotten involved in social programs; others have gone on the satsang circuit, and still others have continued with their usual jobs. What will happen pre and post SR is totally unpredictable. Any thought of what "should" happen is a thought worth questioning.
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Post by enigma on Jul 30, 2019 9:37:31 GMT -5
She may be asking why there is not a correlation between insights and interests. It's similar to the sage behavior expectation discussion. In spite of the absence of causation within the dream, correlation remains in the larger context. The actions of THIS are unified by virtue of wholeness, and so there will be integrity within creation even in the absence of cause/effect or volition inside that creation. That integrity is the reason for the perfection that is seen. The correlation must be there whether or not it's recognized. People used to ask Ramana why he didn't leave Arunachula and get involved in social service. He remained silent. If he'd been a Zen Master, he might have raised his index finger in silence. Many people have asked Tolle what he plans to do with all the money his books and satsangs have generated. On most occasions he's answered, "I'm waiting to find out." Some sages have gotten involved in social programs; others have gone on the satsang circuit, and still others have continued with their usual jobs. What will happen pre and post SR is totally unpredictable. Any thought of what "should" happen is a thought worth questioning. I would not say totally as there are clearly patterns, but in order to predict one must be cognizant of the totality of creation at the moment it unfolds. Let's call that problematic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 11:20:51 GMT -5
Nah.. i knew you wouldn't crack because of that silly song. I know. You were mostly jesting, but, there does seem to be a sense on your part of trying to poke holes in the point that regardless of how dire appearances may be, the seeing of fundamental perfection abides....? I get the sense you are to some degree, scoffing...? Indeed. My life is not devoid of such 'poignant' events, I assure you. In the past 5 yrs....Both children dx'd with a fatal genetic disease....mom with Alzheimers.... ....the unfolding story itself is not devoid of 'issues,' but still.... Agreed and understood. Is that even possible? I say it's not. And despite what you see happening here with me, I remain abidingly aware of that. I fully agree with what you say above. Ultimately, I cannot know re: the others I'm conversing with. As difficult as it may be to accept, the driving interest behind my engagement here and behind most of my spiritual writings these days, is to talk about what is actually True....what can actually be known. A juxtaposing view is part and parcel of pointing beyond it. It appears that divergent opinion is often an important component in terms of clarifying talking points about what is Truth. Absent a point of view that is 'in the story' there is no pointing 'beyond the story.' The two, as appearances, as happenings, are indeed correlated, but again, in clarity it's seen that correlation does not equal causation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 13:45:16 GMT -5
Nah.. i knew you wouldn't crack because of that silly song. I know. You were mostly jesting, but, there does seem to be a sense on your part of trying to poke holes in the point that regardless of how dire appearances may be, the seeing of fundamental perfection abides....? I get the sense you are to some degree, scoffing...? Indeed. My life is not devoid of such 'poignant' events, I assure you. In the past 5 yrs....Both children dx'd with a fatal genetic disease....mom with Alzheimers.... ....the unfolding story itself is not devoid of 'issues,' but still.... Agreed and understood. Is that even possible? I say it's not. And despite what you see happening here with me, I remain abidingly aware of that. I fully agree with what you say above. Ultimately, I cannot know re: the others I'm conversing with. As difficult as it may be to accept, the driving interest behind my engagement here and behind most of my spiritual writings these days, is to talk about what is actually True....what can actually be known. A juxtaposing view is part and parcel of pointing beyond it. It appears that divergent opinion is often an important component in terms of clarifying talking points about what is Truth. Absent a point of view that is 'in the story' there is no pointing 'beyond the story.' The two, as appearances, as happenings, are indeed correlated, but again, in clarity it's seen that correlation does not equal causation. I'm fond of the figs and E persons. I admire your spunk and persistence. Never a fan of you guys being banned, or anyone else. I have NEVER reported a post. I never will. I like your response. And I actually agree with the suggestion that cause and effect are perceptions rather than actualities. I tend to agree with E's version of events. But I'm still perplexed about its application in the everyday and believe life, what happens, is significant, hence that appearance of cause and effect is valuable. My skepticism about cause and effect is based on my studies of QM, not while hitting a light switch or any sort of realization, but that's another topic altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 15:50:42 GMT -5
My interests, whatever they are, ARE the singular unified movement, and your enjoyment of arguing is also that singular unified movement. She may be asking why there is not a correlation between insights and interests. It's similar to the sage behavior expectation discussion. In spite of the absence of causation within the dream, correlation remains in the larger context. The actions of THIS are unified by virtue of wholeness, and so there will be integrity within creation even in the absence of cause/effect or volition inside that creation. That integrity is the reason for the perfection that is seen. The correlation must be there whether or not it's recognized. Yes. Very well put.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 16:13:36 GMT -5
She may be asking why there is not a correlation between insights and interests. It's similar to the sage behavior expectation discussion. In spite of the absence of causation within the dream, correlation remains in the larger context. The actions of THIS are unified by virtue of wholeness, and so there will be integrity within creation even in the absence of cause/effect or volition inside that creation. That integrity is the reason for the perfection that is seen. The correlation must be there whether or not it's recognized. People used to ask Ramana why he didn't leave Arunachula and get involved in social service. He remained silent. If he'd been a Zen Master, he might have raised his index finger in silence. Many people have asked Tolle what he plans to do with all the money his books and satsangs have generated. On most occasions he's answered, "I'm waiting to find out." Some sages have gotten involved in social programs; others have gone on the satsang circuit, and still others have continued with their usual jobs. What will happen pre and post SR is totally unpredictable. Any thought of what "should" happen is a thought worth questioning. But it can be known that if SR is abiding, one is not going to fall back asleep or get sucked back into actually believing in separation, or an objective world that exists in it's own right, cause/effect...volition.
And all of that does mean that the 'depth/degree' to which engagement with the story happens, changes. There is no longer complete mental immersion and that does have some very real ramifications in terms of arising interest and behavior.
How invested in the science behind global warming can you really get if you are fully aware that the world arises anew each moment....that there is no objectively existent world 'out there'.....no separation....that how the world appears, it's conditions cannot really be predicted because within the story, anything is possible....nothing is actually causing anything else.... It's all one unified moment that is not subject to/reliant upon man's mental plans for a better world...?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 11:41:44 GMT -5
I know. You were mostly jesting, but, there does seem to be a sense on your part of trying to poke holes in the point that regardless of how dire appearances may be, the seeing of fundamental perfection abides....? I get the sense you are to some degree, scoffing...? Indeed. My life is not devoid of such 'poignant' events, I assure you. In the past 5 yrs....Both children dx'd with a fatal genetic disease....mom with Alzheimers.... ....the unfolding story itself is not devoid of 'issues,' but still.... Agreed and understood. Is that even possible? I say it's not. And despite what you see happening here with me, I remain abidingly aware of that. I fully agree with what you say above. Ultimately, I cannot know re: the others I'm conversing with. As difficult as it may be to accept, the driving interest behind my engagement here and behind most of my spiritual writings these days, is to talk about what is actually True....what can actually be known. A juxtaposing view is part and parcel of pointing beyond it. It appears that divergent opinion is often an important component in terms of clarifying talking points about what is Truth. Absent a point of view that is 'in the story' there is no pointing 'beyond the story.' The two, as appearances, as happenings, are indeed correlated, but again, in clarity it's seen that correlation does not equal causation. I'm fond of the figs and E persons. I admire your spunk and persistence. Never a fan of you guys being banned, or anyone else. I have NEVER reported a post. I never will. I like your response. And I actually agree with the suggestion that cause and effect are perceptions rather than actualities. I tend to agree with E's version of events. But I'm still perplexed about its application in the everyday and believe life, what happens, is significant, hence that appearance of cause and effect is valuable. My skepticism about cause and effect is based on my studies of QM, not while hitting a light switch or any sort of realization, but that's another topic altogether. Sure it is. It's an integral facet of the unfolding story.
I totally get how it may seem as though a sort of 'cognitive dissonance' is happening for the one who says he sees cause/effect is just an illusion, yet there he is, typing away in full expectation that his keystrokes are going to show up on the screen.
The best way I can explain is that the seeing that it's illusive is inextricably tied to the seeing that it's all an appearance arising in consciousness.....one singular unified movement. Nothing is separate, nothing exists/appears independent of anything else.
This thing, happening before that, doing this and then that happening, doing this and expecting that to happen, all of that continues to arise in experience, but the transcendent view reveals that the true cause/catalyst to anything that happens/appears, lies fundamental, 'beyond' experience.
Thus, it's hard to get too tied into causal story-lines. For example; This genetic medical issue in my family...I take the 'facts' with a grain of salt....I might go along with a suggested treatment if there is resonance in the moment it presents, but I see far too clearly that anything is possible and a positive outcome is not 'dependent' upon adhering to any particular prescribed treatment. If I did accept treatment, on the surface of things I may speak about it as something I am doing to slow down progression, however, the bigger/transcendent picture will loom larger....the seeing that the condition, the treatment, the resonance with that, and the slowing of progression/or not, is all inextricably One....a singular movement. No one thing/happening within that equation, actually (fundamentally) causing the other.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 31, 2019 13:32:39 GMT -5
I'm fond of the figs and E persons. I admire your spunk and persistence. Never a fan of you guys being banned, or anyone else. I have NEVER reported a post. I never will. I like your response. And I actually agree with the suggestion that cause and effect are perceptions rather than actualities. I tend to agree with E's version of events. But I'm still perplexed about its application in the everyday and believe life, what happens, is significant, hence that appearance of cause and effect is valuable. My skepticism about cause and effect is based on my studies of QM, not while hitting a light switch or any sort of realization, but that's another topic altogether. Sure it is. It's an integral facet of the unfolding story.
I totally get how it may seem as though a sort of 'cognitive dissonance' is happening for the one who says he sees cause/effect is just an illusion, yet there he is, typing away in full expectation that his keystrokes are going to show up on the screen.
The best way I can explain is that the seeing that it's illusive is inextricably tied to the seeing that it's all an appearance arising in consciousness.....one singular unified movement. Nothing is separate, nothing exists/appears independent of anything else.
This thing, happening before that, doing this and then that happening, doing this and expecting that to happen, all of that continues to arise in experience, but the transcendent view reveals that the true cause/catalyst to anything that happens/appears, lies fundamental, 'beyond' experience.
Thus, it's hard to get too tied into causal story-lines. For example; This genetic medical issue in my family...I take the 'facts' with a grain of salt....I might go along with a suggested treatment if there is resonance in the moment it presents, but I see far too clearly that anything is possible and a positive outcome is not 'dependent' upon adhering to any particular prescribed treatment. If I did accept treatment, on the surface of things I may speak about it as something I am doing to slow down progression, however, the bigger/transcendent picture will loom larger....the seeing that the condition, the treatment, the resonance with that, and the slowing of progression/or not, is all inextricably One....a singular movement. No one thing/happening within that equation, actually (fundamentally) causing the other.
I'm not joking around now figs, but I'm starting to get concerned about what you are writing. This is not enlightened thinking. For those who have realized, the personality is very stable and totally integrated but what I'm increasingly hearing from you sounds like personality disassociation. It's a bit worrying. I'm being serious now because I can feel an obsessiveness about it. I think you need to get grounded. Advaita Vedanta does not reject the world and sages see the world as the divine creation. Most are fully engaged with it in helping others. There are some who prefer the recluse life but most do not. What you are saying recently about everything being an illusion is disassociative and that's of concern because it doesn't come from peace and silence but from a kind of disturbed thinking. There is a kind of mania in your posts now. I'm just trying to be honest with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 15:36:39 GMT -5
Sure it is. It's an integral facet of the unfolding story.
I totally get how it may seem as though a sort of 'cognitive dissonance' is happening for the one who says he sees cause/effect is just an illusion, yet there he is, typing away in full expectation that his keystrokes are going to show up on the screen.
The best way I can explain is that the seeing that it's illusive is inextricably tied to the seeing that it's all an appearance arising in consciousness.....one singular unified movement. Nothing is separate, nothing exists/appears independent of anything else.
This thing, happening before that, doing this and then that happening, doing this and expecting that to happen, all of that continues to arise in experience, but the transcendent view reveals that the true cause/catalyst to anything that happens/appears, lies fundamental, 'beyond' experience.
Thus, it's hard to get too tied into causal story-lines. For example; This genetic medical issue in my family...I take the 'facts' with a grain of salt....I might go along with a suggested treatment if there is resonance in the moment it presents, but I see far too clearly that anything is possible and a positive outcome is not 'dependent' upon adhering to any particular prescribed treatment. If I did accept treatment, on the surface of things I may speak about it as something I am doing to slow down progression, however, the bigger/transcendent picture will loom larger....the seeing that the condition, the treatment, the resonance with that, and the slowing of progression/or not, is all inextricably One....a singular movement. No one thing/happening within that equation, actually (fundamentally) causing the other.
I'm not joking around now figs, but I'm starting to get concerned about what you are writing. This is not enlightened thinking. For those who have realized, the personality is very stable and totally integrated but what I'm increasingly hearing from you sounds like personality disassociation. It's a bit worrying. I'm being serious now because I can feel an obsessiveness about it. I think you need to get grounded. Advaita Vedanta does not reject the world and sages see the world as the divine creation. Most are fully engaged with it in helping others. There are some who prefer the recluse life but most do not. What you are saying recently about everything being an illusion is disassociative and that's of concern because it doesn't come from peace and silence but from a kind of disturbed thinking. There is a kind of mania in your posts now. I'm just trying to be honest with you. Could you indicate what I specifically said there that has you worried about 'personality disassociation'?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 31, 2019 16:43:49 GMT -5
Sure it is. It's an integral facet of the unfolding story.
I totally get how it may seem as though a sort of 'cognitive dissonance' is happening for the one who says he sees cause/effect is just an illusion, yet there he is, typing away in full expectation that his keystrokes are going to show up on the screen.
The best way I can explain is that the seeing that it's illusive is inextricably tied to the seeing that it's all an appearance arising in consciousness.....one singular unified movement. Nothing is separate, nothing exists/appears independent of anything else.
This thing, happening before that, doing this and then that happening, doing this and expecting that to happen, all of that continues to arise in experience, but the transcendent view reveals that the true cause/catalyst to anything that happens/appears, lies fundamental, 'beyond' experience.
Thus, it's hard to get too tied into causal story-lines. For example; This genetic medical issue in my family...I take the 'facts' with a grain of salt....I might go along with a suggested treatment if there is resonance in the moment it presents, but I see far too clearly that anything is possible and a positive outcome is not 'dependent' upon adhering to any particular prescribed treatment. If I did accept treatment, on the surface of things I may speak about it as something I am doing to slow down progression, however, the bigger/transcendent picture will loom larger....the seeing that the condition, the treatment, the resonance with that, and the slowing of progression/or not, is all inextricably One....a singular movement. No one thing/happening within that equation, actually (fundamentally) causing the other.
Advaita Vedanta does not reject the world and sages see the world as the divine creation. Most are fully engaged with it in helping others. There are some who prefer the recluse life but most do not. Correct.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 17:18:31 GMT -5
Advaita Vedanta does not reject the world and sages see the world as the divine creation. Most are fully engaged with it in helping others. There are some who prefer the recluse life but most do not. Correct. So, you agree that "Most" sages are fully engaged in helping others...and "most" do not enjoy a reclusive life.
But don't you also say that the behavioral manifestations of sages cannot be predicted?
And, In terms of this 'full engagement in helping others' what precisely does that entail? Are you talking about a general countenance towards being helpful/kind where circumstance arises for such, or are you talking a particular, specific vocation/path of 'helping others' ?
As I see it, 'sage-hood' does indeed result in a general countenance towards being helpful/supportive of fellow man in the face of help needed, but that can manifest in a myriad of ways, one need not take on a specific 'life-plan' per se ' nor commit to a specific vocation of helping others. That willingness to be of help is really just part and parcel of the absence of resistance....of flowing along with what presents....of loving life in it's totality.
But I don't see a sage any less so if he/she prefers solitude over socializing. Those types of personal preferences/personality traits continue post SR.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 18:44:36 GMT -5
I know. You were mostly jesting, but, there does seem to be a sense on your part of trying to poke holes in the point that regardless of how dire appearances may be, the seeing of fundamental perfection abides....? I get the sense you are to some degree, scoffing...? Indeed. My life is not devoid of such 'poignant' events, I assure you. In the past 5 yrs....Both children dx'd with a fatal genetic disease....mom with Alzheimers.... ....the unfolding story itself is not devoid of 'issues,' but still.... Agreed and understood. Is that even possible? I say it's not. And despite what you see happening here with me, I remain abidingly aware of that. I fully agree with what you say above. Ultimately, I cannot know re: the others I'm conversing with. As difficult as it may be to accept, the driving interest behind my engagement here and behind most of my spiritual writings these days, is to talk about what is actually True....what can actually be known. A juxtaposing view is part and parcel of pointing beyond it. It appears that divergent opinion is often an important component in terms of clarifying talking points about what is Truth. Absent a point of view that is 'in the story' there is no pointing 'beyond the story.' The two, as appearances, as happenings, are indeed correlated, but again, in clarity it's seen that correlation does not equal causation. I'm fond of the figs and E persons. I admire your spunk and persistence. Never a fan of you guys being banned, or anyone else. I have NEVER reported a post. I never will. I like your response. And I actually agree with the suggestion that cause and effect are perceptions rather than actualities. I tend to agree with E's version of events. But I'm still perplexed about its application in the everyday and believe life, what happens, is significant, hence that appearance of cause and effect is valuable. My skepticism about cause and effect is based on my studies of QM, not while hitting a light switch or any sort of realization, but that's another topic altogether. It's problematic we search answer because we believe in cause and effect. Searching continue to happen until we notice the illusion of that
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