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Post by satchitananda on Jul 17, 2019 0:05:04 GMT -5
It's difficult to give the label no self-honesty to someone who is acting from the unconscious. They are not conscious that they're dishonest. And confronting them with the truth just makes things worse. But if they get curious about the idea, they might start to become conscious of the content and structure of their own mind. What is that supposed to mean?
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Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2019 11:55:26 GMT -5
Clearly, in this instance, there is no self-honesty, in existential terms, and the atrocities you refer to were rife with denial and hypocrisy that are painfully obvious in retrospect, even after accounting for cultural context. Billy Shakes presented a no-win situation that demanded a vengeance that never had any chance of equating to justice. Hamlet's demonstrated recognition and understanding of that and his subsequent indecision only made matters worse. All hundreds of years before the American Civil War. The existential dilemma, is essentially, timeless. My point in bringing up our country’s ugly history is that residually speaking The world power structure has a lot to do with tribal warfare and who carried the biggest stick. We used to be allowed to belt our kids but if I belt my neighbor I get locked up. We’ve allotted our use of force to order followers of the executive branch while the average adult male in this country resembles more a sedated and castrated chimpanzee than an evolved spiritual being. I speculate that at some point we won’t even need laws to bind human behavior, and I also foresee being dead before that happens😂 History will likely always be ugly.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2019 12:58:29 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what they say. You have to look at their actions. What's inside leaks out... That depends on how honest with the world and themselves they're being, and sometimes, you can get a clue about that by comparing what they say with what they do. But 20's point was that most older western men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace, and if you review what you've written on the topic since then, it actually supports her position. I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other...
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Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2019 13:07:10 GMT -5
That depends on how honest with the world and themselves they're being, and sometimes, you can get a clue about that by comparing what they say with what they do. But 20's point was that most older western men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace, and if you review what you've written on the topic since then, it actually supports her position. I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... People who've unconsciously built blinders and walls of protection against suffering would consider themselves free of suffering precisely because they've blinded themselves to it.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 17, 2019 13:10:03 GMT -5
I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... People who've unconsciously built blinders and walls of protection against suffering would consider themselves free of suffering precisely because they've blinded themselves to it. Yeah, it's very interesting. I've definitely raised an eyebrow at this declaration of contentment from older men I've spoken to in the past.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 13:15:08 GMT -5
My point in bringing up our country’s ugly history is that residually speaking The world power structure has a lot to do with tribal warfare and who carried the biggest stick. We used to be allowed to belt our kids but if I belt my neighbor I get locked up. We’ve allotted our use of force to order followers of the executive branch while the average adult male in this country resembles more a sedated and castrated chimpanzee than an evolved spiritual being. I speculate that at some point we won’t even need laws to bind human behavior, and I also foresee being dead before that happens😂 History will likely always be ugly. Before history, was right beautiful though.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2019 13:36:03 GMT -5
I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... People who've unconsciously built blinders and walls of protection against suffering would consider themselves free of suffering precisely because they've blinded themselves to it. OK, then ask them a further question: So then as you are free of suffering and at peace, then does this mean you would change nothing in your life? Would you change anything? Do you have any regrets? If you could change anything, even one mistake from your past, would you?
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Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2019 13:41:52 GMT -5
People who've unconsciously built blinders and walls of protection against suffering would consider themselves free of suffering precisely because they've blinded themselves to it. OK, then ask them a further question: So then as you are free of suffering and at peace, then does this mean you would change nothing in your life? Would you change anything? Do you have any regrets? If you could change anything, even one mistake from your past, would you? That's a different issue besides the one that was the subject of discussion. Even a stoic knows that since there's zero chance of altering the past that the question about regrets is a silly one. But, the deeper answer is found in the realization of perfection.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2019 13:43:42 GMT -5
OK, then ask them a further question: So then as you are free of suffering and at peace, then does this mean you would change nothing in your life? Would you change anything? Do you have any regrets? If you could change anything, even one mistake from your past, would you? That's a different issue besides the one that was the subject of discussion. Even a stoic knows that since there's zero chance of altering the past that the question about regrets is a silly one. But, the deeper answer is found in the realization of perfection. Two different questions. This one is about the present.
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Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2019 13:50:48 GMT -5
That's a different issue besides the one that was the subject of discussion. Even a stoic knows that since there's zero chance of altering the past that the question about regrets is a silly one. But, the deeper answer is found in the realization of perfection. Two different questions. This one is about the present. Yes, of course there are things that I want to change. Change is the only constant in life. Realization is the end of any attempt at acceptance and the beginning of genuine, effortless acceptance. What is accepted is the entirety of eternity, as it is, and is it can only ever be, in the moment. This doesn't mean that the current conditions as they are, are taken as the way things have to be or that they'll always be that way. It's a certainty that they won't be that way forever, and having a plan and preferences is all just the relative world of life, happening.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2019 16:45:44 GMT -5
That's a different issue besides the one that was the subject of discussion. Even a stoic knows that since there's zero chance of altering the past that the question about regrets is a silly one. But, the deeper answer is found in the realization of perfection. Two different questions. This one is about the present. I can't think of anything that I would change.
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2019 19:17:32 GMT -5
That depends on how honest with the world and themselves they're being, and sometimes, you can get a clue about that by comparing what they say with what they do. But 20's point was that most older western men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace, and if you review what you've written on the topic since then, it actually supports her position. I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... It's my experience that most older men like to complain on a pretty regular basis. About health, the spouse, the kids, economics, politics, life in general.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 17, 2019 20:48:45 GMT -5
I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... It's my experience that most older men like to complain on a pretty regular basis. About health, the spouse, the kids, economics, politics, life in general. You haven't met any complaining teenagers?
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jul 17, 2019 21:48:49 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what they say. You have to look at their actions. What's inside leaks out... That depends on how honest with the world and themselves they're being, and sometimes, you can get a clue about that by comparing what they say with what they do. But 20's point was that most older western men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace, and if you review what you've written on the topic since then, it actually supports her position. I’d say most older western men are walled off from their emotions, and so wouldn’t interpret their own state as suffering. I’m sure even amongst the non dual folk, most probably were ‘happy’ as kids, as we’re so easily surrounded by hope, even in the midst of darkness, as youngsters. When we become adults, and things don’t pan out, that’s when nonduality makes sense on the compensatory level. Psychologists say that all adults are just trying to recreate their fondness of their childhood in some form. Which ties into oneness too, as all humans are less conscious as adults than children prior to awakening.
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Post by enigma on Jul 18, 2019 9:23:59 GMT -5
It's my experience that most older men like to complain on a pretty regular basis. About health, the spouse, the kids, economics, politics, life in general. You haven't met any complaining teenagers? I have. It didn't convince me that older men are free of suffering and at peace.
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