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Post by laughter on Jul 18, 2019 11:44:07 GMT -5
That depends on how honest with the world and themselves they're being, and sometimes, you can get a clue about that by comparing what they say with what they do. But 20's point was that most older western men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace, and if you review what you've written on the topic since then, it actually supports her position. I’d say most older western men are walled off from their emotions, and so wouldn’t interpret their own state as suffering. I’m sure even amongst the non dual folk, most probably were ‘happy’ as kids, as we’re so easily surrounded by hope, even in the midst of darkness, as youngsters. When we become adults, and things don’t pan out, that’s when nonduality makes sense on the compensatory level. Psychologists say that all adults are just trying to recreate their fondness of their childhood in some form. Which ties into oneness too, as all humans are less conscious as adults than children prior to awakening. And it's the cessation of that compensatory pattern that RM meant when he used the word "destroyed", and what can prelude that destruction is a quiescent, inward, honest attention on all movements of mind as they're happening. Self-honesty can't cause SR, but even if SR doesn't happen, it's got the potential to lead to less suffering. Not to discount that it actually might lead to a greater intensity of suffering in the short term, but it's like a workout that way.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 18, 2019 11:45:46 GMT -5
I don't care to go back and look at what I wrote. It's absurd to think that most older men consider themselves free of suffering and at peace. People (unconsciously) build blinders and walls of protection against suffering. That's what ego/self is. So show me the majority of older men free of self. Ever see Prince of Tides? That's a picture of most older men. ......Listen to what good male friends tell each other... It's my experience that most older men like to complain on a pretty regular basis. About health, the spouse, the kids, economics, politics, life in general. Yes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 18, 2019 11:47:27 GMT -5
It's my experience that most older men like to complain on a pretty regular basis. About health, the spouse, the kids, economics, politics, life in general. You haven't met any complaining teenagers? Well...no teenager is ever going to say they are happy...
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joemc
New Member
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Post by joemc on Jul 27, 2019 14:58:44 GMT -5
Mind is made-up of thoughts. If I ask you to bring me a thought, you couldn’t do it. You could only bring me a piece of a brain - and that’s assuming you are sure thoughts are in the brain. In any event, you can’t put a thought in a Petri dish. So I think destroying the mind is a recognition that thought-free Being is one’s true nature. Abiding in thought-free Being thins out the mind and makes it transparent. Thoughts happen, but if one has cleared away their false identification as being the thinker, it will no longer be felt that one is doing the thinking. I assume that is why it is said not to judge Sages on their appearance or actions.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 27, 2019 16:44:53 GMT -5
Mind is made-up of thoughts. If I ask you to bring me a thought, you couldn’t do it. You could only bring me a piece of a brain - and that’s assuming you are sure thoughts are in the brain. In any event, you can’t put a thought in a Petri dish. So I think destroying the mind is a recognition that thought-free Being is one’s true nature. Abiding in thought-free Being thins out the mind and makes it transparent. Thoughts happen, but if one has cleared away their false identification as being the thinker, it will no longer be felt that one is doing the thinking. I assume that is why it is said not to judge Sages on their appearance or actions. Hi Joe and welcome to the forum. I assume that what you term "abiding in thought-free Being" is what I like to call "non-abidance in mind." Thinking still occurs, but there is no longer a sense that there is a separate entity doing the thinking.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 27, 2019 22:28:08 GMT -5
Mind is made-up of thoughts. If I ask you to bring me a thought, you couldn’t do it. You could only bring me a piece of a brain - and that’s assuming you are sure thoughts are in the brain. In any event, you can’t put a thought in a Petri dish. So I think destroying the mind is a recognition that thought-free Being is one’s true nature. Abiding in thought-free Being thins out the mind and makes it transparent. Thoughts happen, but if one has cleared away their false identification as being the thinker, it will no longer be felt that one is doing the thinking. I assume that is why it is said not to judge Sages on their appearance or actions. Very well said.... and true.
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Post by enigma on Jul 28, 2019 21:38:35 GMT -5
You haven't met any complaining teenagers? Well...no teenager is ever going to say they are happy... Teenagers are deliriously happy and hopelessly miserable. The death throes of a dying innocence. It's why we love em so much.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Aug 2, 2019 10:38:28 GMT -5
I’d say most older western men are walled off from their emotions, and so wouldn’t interpret their own state as suffering. I’m sure even amongst the non dual folk, most probably were ‘happy’ as kids, as we’re so easily surrounded by hope, even in the midst of darkness, as youngsters. When we become adults, and things don’t pan out, that’s when nonduality makes sense on the compensatory level. Psychologists say that all adults are just trying to recreate their fondness of their childhood in some form. Which ties into oneness too, as all humans are less conscious as adults than children prior to awakening. And it's the cessation of that compensatory pattern that RM meant when he used the word "destroyed", and what can prelude that destruction is a quiescent, inward, honest attention on all movements of mind as they're happening. Self-honesty can't cause SR, but even if SR doesn't happen, it's got the potential to lead to less suffering. Not to discount that it actually might lead to a greater intensity of suffering in the short term, but it's like a workout that way. Who is RM again? To destroy a compensatory pattern is to make conscious and bring to light the energy that fuels it, most of which we could classify as either pain or emotional injury. The idea of destroying pain or destroying an emotional injury isn't really an accurate pointer to emotional processing. It sounds more like a glorified compensatory pattern. Not to say a compensatory identity or pattern can't be dismantled or eliminated, but the bottom line is those who demonstrate clarity are more emotionally conscious than those who don't. Pure consciousness is infinite, shapeless, and unbounded. Through the manifested, one consciousness conditions itself as a person through changing the universe, and during this conditioning identification happens. More pointedly, a pattern of compensation arises through the creation of personally unconscious people. Groups are split on whether this creation of the personally unconscious is God's creation or the creation of the unconscious themselves. The former testify to the human inclination toward self reliance and control, while the latter point out that such self reliance and control is itself a projection of a dynamic running internally, unconsciously, such that the idea humans chose unconsciousness isn't toadally true. I meet many folks who have lost faith in God, because they see a lack of justice in a striving to get ahead. Some even compensate for that loss of faith with a belief in a biblical God, and essentially lock their own prison cells by painting a mural of a sunset on the wall. Justice is human conditioning operating according to the same logic. In the same way consciousness identifies with being a predator, it likewise identifies with being a victim. Freedom is not in the identity, but beyond, and yet, within reach. You mention self realization, whether SR happens, and so on, but isn't it interesting how little we talk about emotional injuries on this forum? Injuries are the obstacle to freedom, but its the compensations on the outer layer over riding the pain that must first be noticed, and taken away. The society we inhabit is a compensation for guilt, shame, pain and trauma. Normalcy is compensation, and until we can see that clearly, the likelihood of transcending our own unconsciousness, on the personal level, is essentially nil. Most people are not just a little bit, but highly unconscious of how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are. And yet, the show goes on...
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Post by satchitananda on Aug 2, 2019 10:55:16 GMT -5
Most people are not just a little bit, but highly unconscious of how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are. And yet, the show goes on... I am completely dismayed reading this. It shows nothing less than complete ignorance of what it means to just be. What a waste of words. What a waste of thinking!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2019 15:45:34 GMT -5
Most people are not just a little bit, but highly unconscious of how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are. And yet, the show goes on... I am completely dismayed reading this. It shows nothing less than complete ignorance of what it means to just be. What a waste of words. What a waste of thinking! Most people have no clue what it would mean to just be, so lopezc is correct. Most people believe they are their thoughts, that what they think constitutes their self, that is, what they think is a manifestation of their self. Most people don't have a clue as to how thoughts originate, and so thoughts are just spit out unconsciously. So "how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are" is quite accurate.
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2019 19:41:58 GMT -5
I am completely dismayed reading this. It shows nothing less than complete ignorance of what it means to just be. What a waste of words. What a waste of thinking! Most people have no clue what it would mean to just be, so lopezc is correct. Most people believe they are their thoughts, that what they think constitutes their self, that is, what they think is a manifestation of their self. Most people don't have a clue as to how thoughts originate, and so thoughts are just spit out unconsciously. So "how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are" is quite accurate. Satch believes thoughts occur randomly for no reason.
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Post by satchitananda on Aug 2, 2019 21:17:16 GMT -5
Most people have no clue what it would mean to just be, so lopezc is correct. Most people believe they are their thoughts, that what they think constitutes their self, that is, what they think is a manifestation of their self. Most people don't have a clue as to how thoughts originate, and so thoughts are just spit out unconsciously. So "how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are" is quite accurate. Satch believes thoughts occur randomly for no reason. Did you know you were going to think that before you thought it?
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Post by laughter on Aug 2, 2019 21:43:05 GMT -5
And it's the cessation of that compensatory pattern that RM meant when he used the word "destroyed", and what can prelude that destruction is a quiescent, inward, honest attention on all movements of mind as they're happening. Self-honesty can't cause SR, but even if SR doesn't happen, it's got the potential to lead to less suffering. Not to discount that it actually might lead to a greater intensity of suffering in the short term, but it's like a workout that way. Who is RM again? To destroy a compensatory pattern is to make conscious and bring to light the energy that fuels it, most of which we could classify as either pain or emotional injury. The idea of destroying pain or destroying an emotional injury isn't really an accurate pointer to emotional processing. It sounds more like a glorified compensatory pattern. Not to say a compensatory identity or pattern can't be dismantled or eliminated, but the bottom line is those who demonstrate clarity are more emotionally conscious than those who don't. Pure consciousness is infinite, shapeless, and unbounded. Through the manifested, one consciousness conditions itself as a person through changing the universe, and during this conditioning identification happens. More pointedly, a pattern of compensation arises through the creation of personally unconscious people. Groups are split on whether this creation of the personally unconscious is God's creation or the creation of the unconscious themselves. The former testify to the human inclination toward self reliance and control, while the latter point out that such self reliance and control is itself a projection of a dynamic running internally, unconsciously, such that the idea humans chose unconsciousness isn't toadally true. I meet many folks who have lost faith in God, because they see a lack of justice in a striving to get ahead. Some even compensate for that loss of faith with a belief in a biblical God, and essentially lock their own prison cells by painting a mural of a sunset on the wall. Justice is human conditioning operating according to the same logic. In the same way consciousness identifies with being a predator, it likewise identifies with being a victim. Freedom is not in the identity, but beyond, and yet, within reach. You mention self realization, whether SR happens, and so on, but isn't it interesting how little we talk about emotional injuries on this forum? Injuries are the obstacle to freedom, but its the compensations on the outer layer over riding the pain that must first be noticed, and taken away. The society we inhabit is a compensation for guilt, shame, pain and trauma. Normalcy is compensation, and until we can see that clearly, the likelihood of transcending our own unconsciousness, on the personal level, is essentially nil. Most people are not just a little bit, but highly unconscious of how interlinked into collective dysfunction they are. And yet, the show goes on... Emotional consciousness is as good a synonym for clarity as any other, and while realization isn't necessary for clarity in this sense, realization can open an entire new dimension on it. In terms of realization, I'll write about "SR" because there's more or less a very loose forum consensus on what that refers to, but my opinion is that there are a number of different significant existential realizations possible, and that the number and the way these split-out can vary quite a bit among individuals. By "RM" I meant Ramana Maharshi, and I agree, referring to "destruction" in these terms can be unhelpful, but he did evidently refer to the possibility of the "destruction of mind". Similar to Jed, if I spoke with him, I'd feel him out by positing the fact that it's only ego that would seek to destroy ego, which ain't never gonna' really happen, and I'd be interested in his response. For either RM or Jed, given what they were talking about, it's important to put what they said in the proper and greater context, and I get the feeling from what I've read of both of them that they'd know what I meant by that it's only ego that would look to destroy ego. In terms of the question of how unconsciousness is created, to some extent, it's quite clear how the gears of culture grind on against themselves over the years to perpetuate some of that. But in terms of the specific individuals, we have to keep in mind what that individual really is, which is, as you say, infinite, shapeless and unbounded. The goal of emotional healing is noble. We can recognize the virtue of it, in human terms, and what this virtue reflects is that very unboundedness, because it is in that infinity where the unity suggested by the pointer of not-two is found. Existential realization offers an opportunity for a transcendent sort of "integration". One that doesn't ignore or belittle the individual's injuries, nor necessarily heal them, but that puts them into an embodied perspective that can't be arrived at by a change in conditions or conditioning.
While I'm certainly no healer, I can see what's going on with this. In terms of how past emotional injury moves into the light of pure consciousness, it's more like a dissolution, and opening, a gaining of space and a lightening, than it is a fracturing or a crushing or a smashing. I can imagine it being jarring, even violent, but I can't imagine it ever being coerced. Facilitating this, as well as pursing it, demands strength, but of the patient, gentle nurturing variety. Strength in support, rather than in rending.
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Post by enigma on Aug 3, 2019 9:37:55 GMT -5
Satch believes thoughts occur randomly for no reason. Did you know you were going to think that before you thought it? No, but that doesn't mean thoughts occur randomly for no reason. You're not consciously aware of everything you know.
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Post by satchitananda on Aug 3, 2019 10:41:42 GMT -5
Did you know you were going to think that before you thought it? No, but that doesn't mean thoughts occur randomly for no reason. You're not consciously aware of everything you know. That's the difference between theory and actuality. I couldn't really call that a theory though because saying, that doesn't mean thoughts occur randomly for no reason is just as valid as saying it doesn't mean thoughts occur randomly for a reason. You haven't put forward any kind of mechanism or explanation to support one view or other. But as far as the actuality is concerned it's quite clear. A thought appears and disappears. End of story. That is what is actually happening.
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