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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 17, 2019 19:13:25 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the idea that Buddhist monks would traditionally confirm the "enlightenment" of their disciples... if that's true, I'm wondering how that was done. Any particular tests? I assume it varied between different Buddhist schools?
How about in other traditions?
In the Vedantic scriptures, the validation if any is very spare -- at most something like "Have I cleared up all your doubts? Yes? Great!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 22:25:18 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the idea that Buddhist monks would traditionally confirm the "enlightenment" of their disciples... if that's true, I'm wondering how that was done. Any particular tests? I assume it varied between different Buddhist schools? How about in other traditions? In the Vedantic scriptures, the validation if any is very spare -- at most something like "Have I cleared up all your doubts? Yes? Great!" You tell him he's won the lottery. Let him revel in his big win for a day or two....observe him start mentally spending the dough....and then all in one fell swoop, with a big cheesy grin, you tell him you were just joking. If he laughs, he's enlightened, if he cries, maybe a little...if he chases you with an intent to harm, likely not.  |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 17, 2019 23:23:33 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the idea that Buddhist monks would traditionally confirm the "enlightenment" of their disciples... if that's true, I'm wondering how that was done. Any particular tests? I assume it varied between different Buddhist schools? How about in other traditions? In the Vedantic scriptures, the validation if any is very spare -- at most something like "Have I cleared up all your doubts? Yes? Great!" You tell him he's won the lottery. Let him revel in his big win for a day or two....observe him start mentally spending the dough....and then all in one fell swoop, with a big cheesy grin, you tell him you were just joking. If he laughs, he's enlightened, if he cries, maybe a little...if he chases you with an intent to harm, likely not. "Life is but a dream... and so's your death." |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 18, 2019 8:00:28 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the idea that Buddhist monks would traditionally confirm the "enlightenment" of their disciples... if that's true, I'm wondering how that was done. Any particular tests? I assume it varied between different Buddhist schools? How about in other traditions? In the Vedantic scriptures, the validation if any is very spare -- at most something like "Have I cleared up all your doubts? Yes? Great!" In the Zen Rinzai tradition koans are often used to test the general understanding of monks, but by working with the monks and watching them during everyday life the master of the monastery also gets a sense of what their understanding is and what their level of attainment is. In the Quan Um Korean tradition there's a public testing session for people who want to become master dharma teachers (one step below becoming a Zen Master). The individual sits in front of an assemblage and takes questions from the audience, and the clarity s/he demonstrates when answering the questions is judged by both the Zen Master in charge and the other senior monks and laypeople. To become a Zen Master requires the testing and approval of at least three other Zen Masters. The testing sessions involve a form of what's called "dharma combat." There are dozens of famous stories from the Zen tradition about monks who thought that they were sufficiently enlightened to teach only to be confronted by a question from their ZM that made them realize that they were not as clear as they had imagined. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 18, 2019 8:10:16 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the idea that Buddhist monks would traditionally confirm the "enlightenment" of their disciples... if that's true, I'm wondering how that was done. Any particular tests? I assume it varied between different Buddhist schools? How about in other traditions? In the Vedantic scriptures, the validation if any is very spare -- at most something like "Have I cleared up all your doubts? Yes? Great!" In the Zen Rinzai tradition koans are often used to test the general understanding of monks, but by working with the monks and watching them during everyday life the master of the monastery also gets a sense of what their understanding is and what their level of attainment is. In the Quan Um Korean tradition there's a public testing session for people who want to become master dharma teachers (one step below becoming a Zen Master). The individual sits in front of an assemblage and takes questions from the audience, and the clarity s/he demonstrates when answering the questions is judged by both the Zen Master in charge and the other senior monks and laypeople. To become a Zen Master requires the testing and approval of at least three other Zen Masters. The testing sessions involve a form of what's called "dharma combat." There are dozens of famous stories from the Zen tradition about monks who thought that they were sufficiently enlightened to teach only to be confronted by a question from their ZM that made them realize that they were not as clear as they had imagined. Fascinating. If you know of any particularly telling ones and/or have links, I'd love to see them.... |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 18, 2019 8:32:06 GMT -5
In the Zen Rinzai tradition koans are often used to test the general understanding of monks, but by working with the monks and watching them during everyday life the master of the monastery also gets a sense of what their understanding is and what their level of attainment is. In the Quan Um Korean tradition there's a public testing session for people who want to become master dharma teachers (one step below becoming a Zen Master). The individual sits in front of an assemblage and takes questions from the audience, and the clarity s/he demonstrates when answering the questions is judged by both the Zen Master in charge and the other senior monks and laypeople. To become a Zen Master requires the testing and approval of at least three other Zen Masters. The testing sessions involve a form of what's called "dharma combat." There are dozens of famous stories from the Zen tradition about monks who thought that they were sufficiently enlightened to teach only to be confronted by a question from their ZM that made them realize that they were not as clear as they had imagined. Fascinating. If you know of any particularly telling ones and/or have links, I'd love to see them.... Sure. I'll look some up and post them when I get some free time. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 0:15:12 GMT -5
Fascinating. If you know of any particularly telling ones and/or have links, I'd love to see them.... Sure. I'll look some up and post them when I get some free time. ...there's this one where you tell a dude he's just won the lottery.....  |
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Post by tenka on Apr 19, 2019 5:00:47 GMT -5
I think one automatically knows based upon what one says and what one does .
I don't think either that anyone who has S.R. gives a monkey about anyone else's stamp of approval .
I wonder what energy lies behind a S.R. peep that allows / agrees to themselves being tested lol .
What has anyone got to prove to who?
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 20, 2019 20:28:32 GMT -5
Fascinating. If you know of any particularly telling ones and/or have links, I'd love to see them.... Sure. I'll look some up and post them when I get some free time. This is not exactly a test of enlightenment, but it is an amusing example of dharma combat I came across: In the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts. One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet. The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat, slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.
At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, “What is this?”
Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.
Again Master Seung Sahn asked, “What is this?”
After a long period silence, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, “Don’t they have oranges in Korea?” |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 21, 2019 10:47:49 GMT -5
Sure. I'll look some up and post them when I get some free time. This is not exactly a test of enlightenment, but it is an amusing example of dharma combat I came across: In the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts. One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet. The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat, slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.
At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, “What is this?”
Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.
Again Master Seung Sahn asked, “What is this?”
After a long period silence, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, “Don’t they have oranges in Korea?”Yes, that one's a classic. Unless people have been exposed to koans and dharma combat, they will have no idea why Seung Sahn asked that question. I scanned several books this morning looking for some of the classic cases where students realized that they weren't yet ready to teach, but couldn't find them. Laughter may remember some of them. One of them is about a monk who had had several deep realizations, assumably including SR. He packed up his belongings and prepared to leave the monastery. It was customary to say a formal goodbye to the master before leaving, but when he did so, the master asked, "So, you think that you're fully enlightened now. Is that correct?" The monk said it was. The master then said, "Can you keep this enlightenment at all times?" The monk said that he could. The master then asked, "Even in deep sleep?" The monk could not answer this question because it totally shut down his ability to respond. The monk reportedly then unpacked his belongings and stayed with the master another three years before receiving his approval to leave and go teach. This is a funny story for me because when I first read it, I was just as stumped as the monk by the master's question. Several years later I re-read the story, and suddenly realized how the monk could and should have responded. Of course, the monk's general attitude was suspect because in the Zen tradition no one would ever claim to be enlightened, much less insist upon it. If nothing else, it would be considered bad form and an example of ESA. There's another similar story in which a monk thinks he's fully enlightened and ready to teach. The master asks him some question, and the monk responds. The master then says something like, "Well, your mind must be very heavy if it's carrying around...." whatever it was they were discussing. The monk realizes that he's missing something important, unpacks his bags, and stays a lot longer with the master. Hakuin talks about dozens of kensho experiences and at least two satoris in his autobiography, and he describes how his contemplation and resolution of various obscure koans pushed him deeper and deeper as time went by. His story is quite humbling to read because it illustrates how one can have numerous huge realizations, and still have more to learn (or unlearn). Hakuin is also interesting to read about because he became greatly loved by a huge number of ordinary people, and there are several stories about his compassionate behavior. Some ZM's were perceived as cold and austere, but others, like Hakuin, seemed just the opposite. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 21, 2019 11:19:14 GMT -5
This is not exactly a test of enlightenment, but it is an amusing example of dharma combat I came across: In the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts. One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet. The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat, slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.
At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, “What is this?”
Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.
Again Master Seung Sahn asked, “What is this?”
After a long period silence, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, “Don’t they have oranges in Korea?”Yes, that one's a classic. Unless people have been exposed to koans and dharma combat, they will have no idea why Seung Sahn asked that question. I scanned several books this morning looking for some of the classic cases where students realized that they weren't yet ready to teach, but couldn't find them. Laughter may remember some of them. One of them is about a monk who had had several deep realizations, assumably including SR. He packed up his belongings and prepared to leave the monastery. It was customary to say a formal goodbye to the master before leaving, but when he did so, the master asked, "So, you think that you're fully enlightened now. Is that correct?" The monk said it was. The master then said, "Can you keep this enlightenment at all times?" The monk said that he could. The master then asked, "Even in deep sleep?" The monk could not answer this question because it totally shut down his ability to respond. The monk reportedly then unpacked his belongings and stayed with the master another three years before receiving his approval to leave and go teach. This is a funny story for me because when I first read it, I was just as stumped as the monk by the master's question. Several years later I re-read the story, and suddenly realized how the monk could and should have responded. Ah, interesting story.  Care to share your response? You can do it via PM if you'd rather not post your answer publicly, although I really doubt you'd be spoiling anyone's koan contemplation if you did. Interesting. Yeah, I read about Hakuin in Sekida's Zen Training. Seems like a fun guy... |
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Care to share your response? You can do it via PM if you'd rather not post your answer publicly, although I really doubt you'd be spoiling anyone's koan contemplation if you did.