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Post by zendancer on Apr 21, 2019 10:11:21 GMT -5
Oh yes, at core, his offering is transcendent, like this: As for his potential to mislead seekers, I understand your criticism and agree with it to some extent. The way I'd put it is that he's shifted the ongoing process from one of seeking to one of embodiment. While I do think he makes the Zen mistake of sort of projecting his path onto his potential listeners, I have to offer that criticism with a big 'ole grain of salt: .. because for one thing, in my opinion, that was quite clear. Also, as I've said before, he's actually got a heap of real-world experience working with people who are existentially curious, while, I don't. Yes, those two videos seem reasonably clear. But the second, at least, is from 11 years ago. I wonder if he has changed his emphasis in the meanwhile. Actually, I don't dispute this at all -- I believe in the importance for almost everyone of glimpses of the truth. But these are not multiple different truths. They're just the same truth, but the mind is pulled back from it. Yes, THIS is the big issue, as you pointed out above. And it's not just for people who think they've awakened. Even for those who believe they haven't yet awakened, the 'integrative aspect' of spirituality can be a wild goose chase to do all these things that are required to "build up" to the supreme awakening or whatever. It makes it seem as if the search is like trying to put the mind, body, soul, and world all together in some harmonious way instead of clearing away the metric tons of nonsense. Well taking dream noise theory to its limits, grace and acausality must also be part of the dream... My view on minor sequential realizations is not that each realization is the same truth, but that each realization reveals more of what is not true. IOW, each realization removes one or more attachments to various ideas. What Zen calls "satori" is what I think we call SR or TR. Freedom from the idea of the SVP frees the mind from what is probably its deepest attachment, so most of us generally consider that to be the most important realization.
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Post by laughter on Apr 21, 2019 11:17:58 GMT -5
Oh yes, at core, his offering is transcendent, like this: As for his potential to mislead seekers, I understand your criticism and agree with it to some extent. The way I'd put it is that he's shifted the ongoing process from one of seeking to one of embodiment. While I do think he makes the Zen mistake of sort of projecting his path onto his potential listeners, I have to offer that criticism with a big 'ole grain of salt: .. because for one thing, in my opinion, that was quite clear. Also, as I've said before, he's actually got a heap of real-world experience working with people who are existentially curious, while, I don't. Yes, those two videos seem reasonably clear. But the second, at least, is from 11 years ago. I wonder if he has changed his emphasis in the meanwhile. Actually, I don't dispute this at all -- I believe in the importance for almost everyone of glimpses of the truth. But these are not multiple different truths. They're just the same truth, but the mind is pulled back from it. Yes, THIS is the big issue, as you pointed out above. And it's not just for people who think they've awakened. Even for those who believe they haven't yet awakened, the 'integrative aspect' of spirituality can be a wild goose chase to do all these things that are required to "build up" to the supreme awakening or whatever. It makes it seem as if the search is like trying to put the mind, body, soul, and world all together in some harmonious way instead of clearing away the metric tons of nonsense. Well taking dream noise theory to its limits, grace and acausality must also be part of the dream... Oh, I give credit to guys like Adya for garbage collection, although I see your point about the embodiment idea. As far as acausality and grace are concerned, while the existential truth is found in any direction, any step in any of them is a step further away, and some appearances point toward that truth, while other's, most definitely, point away from it.
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Post by laughter on Apr 21, 2019 11:20:16 GMT -5
In his first book, Jed uses the metaphor of a butterfly for self-realization, and expresses the opinion that most of what has been written on the topic in the past few thousand years is "bullsh!t", because it was written by caterpillars. Hrmmmmmmmmmm.... I'm sorry, I have to put my bets on the ancient seers and sages over Jed McKenna Because of their track records of great success in freeing large %'s of the population of people peeps?
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Post by laughter on Apr 21, 2019 11:23:26 GMT -5
In his first book, Jed uses the metaphor of a butterfly for self-realization, and expresses the opinion that most of what has been written on the topic in the past few thousand years is "bullsh!t", because it was written by caterpillars. I dont agree that statement has any veracity regarding the knowledge contained within the Upanishads, Rig Veda etc but it is certainly true if applied to the current crop of Western neo-advaita satsang teachers. There is this tension between two patterns that keep playing out in cycles of history: (1) The existential truth defies institutionalization (2) The cream rises to the top over time
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 21, 2019 11:30:10 GMT -5
Hrmmmmmmmmmm.... I'm sorry, I have to put my bets on the ancient seers and sages over Jed McKenna Because of their track records of great success in freeing large %'s of the population of people peeps? I'm not sure "track records" make any sense as a way to measure these things. SR status is hardly a scientifically-measurable thing. (And see our grace and acausality discussion ). No, the ancient sages and seers knew what they were talking about and spoke clearly, purely, and beautifully. I mean, certainly not all of them, but many of the ones we remember best!
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Post by laughter on Apr 21, 2019 11:35:47 GMT -5
Because of their track records of great success in freeing large %'s of the population of people peeps? I'm not sure "track records" make any sense as a way to measure these things. SR status is hardly a scientifically-measurable thing. (And see our grace and acausality discussion ). No, the ancient sages and seers knew what they were talking about and spoke clearly, purely, and beautifully. I mean, certainly not all of them, but many of the ones we remember best! But remember, what Jed is specifically calling out as bullsh!t are ideas and beliefs. This is just a simple statement that neither the mind nor the heart have any solid ground to stand on. Like. Ever.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 21, 2019 11:58:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure "track records" make any sense as a way to measure these things. SR status is hardly a scientifically-measurable thing. (And see our grace and acausality discussion ). No, the ancient sages and seers knew what they were talking about and spoke clearly, purely, and beautifully. I mean, certainly not all of them, but many of the ones we remember best! But remember, what Jed is specifically calling out as bullsh!t are ideas and beliefs. This is just a simple statement that neither the mind nor the heart have any solid ground to stand on. Like. Ever. But even that is an idea and a belief. So if we really want to play that game to the end, we should emulate Dakshinamurti, whose silence was his greatest teaching, or like the Buddha, who picked up a flower and transmitted Zen that way to Mahakasyapa. But if we are speaking, the question is -- is the all-ideas-are-BS idea the most helpful thing to tell seekers? Maybe for some very few temperamentally inclined to it. But for many more, a substantive philosophy with many more ideas and beliefs are like a ladder that the seeker needs to get to a certain point, after which, kick the ladder away, no problem.
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Post by laughter on Apr 21, 2019 12:17:55 GMT -5
But remember, what Jed is specifically calling out as bullsh!t are ideas and beliefs. This is just a simple statement that neither the mind nor the heart have any solid ground to stand on. Like. Ever. But even that is an idea and a belief. So if we really want to play that game to the end, we should emulate Dakshinamurti, whose silence was his greatest teaching, or like the Buddha, who picked up a flower and transmitted Zen that way to Mahakasyapa. But if we are speaking, the question is -- is the all-ideas-are-BS idea the most helpful thing to tell seekers? Maybe for some very few temperamentally inclined to it. But for many more, a substantive philosophy with many more ideas and beliefs are like a ladder that the seeker needs to get to a certain point, after which, kick the ladder away, no problem. Yes, in silence, the liar's paradox of "no idea is true" isn't chased in a circle, it's witnessed, and has the potential to reveal the thinking, and even the emoting mind, for the process it is. And, kicking the ladder, is exactly what Jed was all about. Until he isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 16:36:18 GMT -5
Because of their track records of great success in freeing large %'s of the population of people peeps? I'm not sure "track records" make any sense as a way to measure these things. SR status is hardly a scientifically-measurable thing. (And see our grace and acausality discussion ). No, the ancient sages and seers knew what they were talking about and spoke clearly, purely, and beautifully. I mean, certainly not all of them, but many of the ones we remember best!"..You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one.." ~ Some Scouse bloke.
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