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Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2020 21:45:13 GMT -5
I propose this quote by ZD to be made the masthead of every page on this forum. Self Realization is when the devotee /yogi experiences Krsna (Param Brahman) appearing in Consciousness. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, " O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?" K: you need to have your own thread.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 21:48:31 GMT -5
I also agree that there is only Self. The false sense of self is a thought structure of some kind, and when it collapses, the truth is realized (the ugly duckling realizes that it is a swan rather than an ugly duckling). "Meditation is what we are, not what we do; the separate self is what we do, not what we are." ~ Rupert Spira. Another long time (25 years plus) practioner of TM.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:11:50 GMT -5
How many sages have you heard of sinking into deep depression and anxiety? I suggest that you read her book to get a better sense of what she experienced/encountered. I'm not claiming anything about how realized she became, but her story is extremely compelling. FWIW, there have been many sages who've become depressed or experienced anxiety, and some have committed suicide. Ikkyu is one of the more famous cases. The future is unknowable, and given the right conditions, it could happen to anybody no matter how enlightened they think they are. Sages have also been alcoholics and chain smokers, and several have had psychotic breaks, so there are no guarantees. Sages remain human, and they're therefore susceptible to the same illnesses, both physical or mental, as any other people. You believe that sages can get depressed and commit suicide just because you believe that those such as Ikkyu were Self realized because they claimed to be. It seems to me that you have not considered the possibility that they were not Self-realized even though they claimed to be. You've also said this about Gangaji and what's more you have said that many of her followers have woken up in her satsangs. Again you are presuming that these people who woke up really have woken up just because they said so. You seem to be taking a lot of what you read and hear at face value. There was the recent scandal involving sexual abuse with the so-called Tibetan master Sogyal Lakar. Everyone thought he was a big self-Realized master. Turned out he wasn't a master but a monster.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:35:18 GMT -5
I don't really disagree with you re: ego. But the story you have been telling, that's only half the story or half the truth. And only knowing have the story and clinging to half truths can be dangerous business. You see, if NS doesn't result in seeing thru the false sense of self then it's very likely that what we have as a result is a spiritual ego with a literal god complex. "Enlightened ego" is an oxymoron. That's a slogan many nondualists continue to repeat, but it's simply not true. You could say that it's a half truth.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2020 22:35:43 GMT -5
You believe that sages can get depressed and commit suicide just because you believe that those such as Ikkyu were Self realized because they claimed to be. How do you know ZD doesn't simply realize that there are no limits on the possibilities in the play of things?
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2020 22:41:25 GMT -5
"Enlightened ego" is an oxymoron. That's a slogan many nondualists continue to repeat, but it's simply not true. You could say that it's a half truth. As we don't have a meeting of the minds on the topics of false self or existential illusion there's no interesting dialog between us here other than an agreement to disagree.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:44:36 GMT -5
That's a slogan many nondualists continue to repeat, but it's simply not true. You could say that it's a half truth. As we don't have a meeting of the minds on the topics of false self or existential illusion there's no interesting dialog between us here other than an agreement to disagree. And that would be your ego coming to that conclusion right?
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2020 22:45:27 GMT -5
As we don't have a meeting of the minds on the topics of false self or existential illusion there's no interesting dialog between us here other than an agreement to disagree. And that would be your ego coming to that conclusion right? I suspect it was simply common sense.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:45:35 GMT -5
You believe that sages can get depressed and commit suicide just because you believe that those such as Ikkyu were Self realized because they claimed to be. How do you know ZD doesn't simply realize that there are no limits on the possibilities in the play of things? Why don't you ask him.
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Post by krsnaraja on Jan 11, 2020 22:46:45 GMT -5
Self Realization is when the devotee /yogi experiences Krsna (Param Brahman) appearing in Consciousness. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, " O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?" K: you need to have your own thread. Just testing the waters, ZD 😊
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2020 22:47:32 GMT -5
How do you know ZD doesn't simply realize that there are no limits on the possibilities in the play of things? Why don't you ask him. You don't care to know yourself? Hmmm. What kind of friend to mankind are you?
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:47:50 GMT -5
And that would be your ego coming to that conclusion right? I suspect it was simply common sense. Those who speak common sense walk on two legs and have a mind.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 11, 2020 22:49:34 GMT -5
You don't care to know yourself? Hmmm. What kind of friend to mankind are you? I know already friend. That's why I'm here.
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2020 22:52:02 GMT -5
I think for most of the free world, it is. Agreed. There obviously is a false sense of self if one "is mistaking the limited sense of self to be what you are." I think that's the definition of a false sense of self. In all fairness, the underlying point that the false sense of identity always borrows itself from the infinite is true enough. Seems to me that's why the Moon appears so often in Zen stories. It's the ultimate existential context mix.
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2020 22:52:28 GMT -5
As we don't have a meeting of the minds on the topics of false self or existential illusion there's no interesting dialog between us here other than an agreement to disagree. And that would be your ego coming to that conclusion right? So, you're refusing to agree to disagree then?
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