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Mar 12, 2019 11:48:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 11:48:24 GMT -5
I'm screwed then because no amount of talking gets me closer to "seeing through," actually increases the skepticism. Jesus said "judge a tree by its fruit" sometimes that fruit ain't looking too appetizing. But permanent samadhi, mushin, whatever, makes me drool. I actually feel that the biggest obstaclle isn't seeing through the illusion for me. I think it's the folks around me will be unnerved, but I guess that's part of not seeing through the illusion. Are their needs greater than yours? Absolutely.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:01:43 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 12:01:43 GMT -5
Oh man the first time I saw the wolf transformation I was a stoned 20-year-old. From the outside looking in, it can seem as though the "realized one" is no different from Joe C. T. .. but looks, can be deceptive, and no amount of explanation will ever resolve the issue. Focus on the individual is precisely 180 degrees from where it should be. Not to say that some bullsh!tter's don't reveal themselves as bullsh!tter's in this way, but the converse just doesn't hold true, no matter how much it might make sense. Yes, your first post on this topic accounts for it all. Normally, I would have "liked" your post and stopped. But last night the ego wanted some exercise, being a little bit of a d$$ck, this editor changes the "d" word to penis, lmao. (** shakes head sadly **)
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Mar 12, 2019 12:07:52 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:07:52 GMT -5
Are their needs greater than yours? Absolutely. Then don't be worrying about anything
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Mar 12, 2019 12:08:10 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:08:10 GMT -5
I'm screwed then because no amount of talking gets me closer to "seeing through," actually increases the skepticism. Jesus said "judge a tree by its fruit" sometimes that fruit ain't looking too appetizing. But permanent samadhi, mushin, whatever, makes me drool. I actually feel that the biggest obstaclle isn't seeing through the illusion for me. I think it's the folks around me will be unnerved, but I guess that's part of not seeing through the illusion. I say that increased skepticism, you're talking about, the judgement of the fruit of the tree, is just ego rearing up because you are having glimpses/glimmers of seeing through. In the actuality of seeing through, ego has to take the back-burner and it just doesn't like that. It also loves the idea of permanent peaceful feelings. And really, that is why I'm generally not terribly fond of suggestions to practice. Sometimes it just strengthens egos resolve that it will arrive at permanent bliss.
Fwiw, you seem to me to be right on the edge.
Jesus also said "judge not." So what does Jesus know? I was hoping that derisive comment would go over everybody's head. I even took "ND fruit" out of the initial version. I was being sneaky. See. Underneath it all, I'm a bliss bunny. I have been to the mountaintop and seen the promised land. I mean no offense, but do you ever OD on figgles. I OD on zazeniac all the time. It feels like the next word I say or type will make me gag. Not talking about others. I like listening to others. You're fun to listen to, just get way tired of self. That's why I leave for extended periods. I need a break from self. The being "close" thing is appreciated, but like that old Paul Simon song goes: " the nearer your destination, the more you're slip sliding away."
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Mar 12, 2019 12:09:39 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:09:39 GMT -5
Then don't be worrying about anything So cool. Thank you.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:10:05 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 12:10:05 GMT -5
SDP: I'd prefer to use E's "individuation" rather than "self" to refer to the body/mind organism. No one denies that each body/mind has unique characteristics (if we want to make those distinctions), but to call that a "self" seems to add confusion from my POV. If we look at "what is" without distinction, words and ideas do not apply, so there's no constriction, no hourglass, no entities, etc. It's all one unified movement, or flow. In everyday life the activity of making abstract distinctions is unnecessary, and in the absence of distinctions life unfolds more smoothly and effortlessly than can be imagined. I don't see a lot of distance between the two views. Liken it to an actor playing a role in play. The role only exists while in the play. ZD says that once realized the actor still plays his role, but it's a choice, he knows he's just playing his role in this play of life.I argue that even after SR, the actor sometimes gets lost in the play. Laughy concedes, and I think ZD will as well, that that can happen for very short periods and some times for longer periods. Some folk, still believe they are their role. For me, my practice, is for the role player to see that he/she are in a Theater, a playhouse. Is the role real. Yes, in the context of the play. And I think the actor can't help but love the play and his role. Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:21:27 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:21:27 GMT -5
I don't see a lot of distance between the two views. Liken it to an actor playing a role in play. The role only exists while in the play. ZD says that once realized the actor still plays his role, but it's a choice, he knows he's just playing his role in this play of life.I argue that even after SR, the actor sometimes gets lost in the play. Laughy concedes, and I think ZD will as well, that that can happen for very short periods and some times for longer periods. Some folk, still believe they are their role. For me, my practice, is for the role player to see that he/she are in a Theater, a playhouse. Is the role real. Yes, in the context of the play. And I think the actor can't help but love the play and his role. Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁
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Mar 12, 2019 12:31:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:31:17 GMT -5
Jesus also said "judge not." So what does Jesus know? I was hoping that derisive comment would go over everybody's head. I even took "ND fruit" out of the initial version. I was being sneaky. See. Underneath it all, I'm a bliss bunny. I have been to the mountaintop and seen the promised land. I mean no offense, but do you ever OD on figgles. I OD on zazeniac all the time. It feels like the next word I say or type will make me gag. I don't know about OD as in makes me gag, but sometimes makes me laugh at how I'm likely making others (if they actually exist.. ) gag. yeah, I understand that and the leaving bit demonstrates important insight. I've been enjoying what you have to say fwiw. LOL...yeah, that's it!
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Mar 12, 2019 13:04:35 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 13:04:35 GMT -5
Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁 heh heh, well, flipping my record to the B side of making SR unattainable ... I found "other people" to be the ultimate, best, and one of the last points of existential contemplation. One question I remember "practicing on" was "how can I stay in presence when dealing with unconscious peeps?" .. and ultimately, it's only mental silence that leads to the end of the questioning, but it has to be done with a relentless and sustained focus on the forefront of mind ... "what in the blazes, is goin' on?? "
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Mar 12, 2019 13:38:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 13:38:38 GMT -5
I don't see a lot of distance between the two views. Liken it to an actor playing a role in play. The role only exists while in the play. ZD says that once realized the actor still plays his role, but it's a choice, he knows he's just playing his role in this play of life.I argue that even after SR, the actor sometimes gets lost in the play. Laughy concedes, and I think ZD will as well, that that can happen for very short periods and some times for longer periods. Some folk, still believe they are their role. For me, my practice, is for the role player to see that he/she are in a Theater, a playhouse. Is the role real. Yes, in the context of the play. And I think the actor can't help but love the play and his role. Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Realization though will make it far less likely that any pattern of happenings will get seriously judged as 'bad life choices.' After all, if we're talking SR, the volitional chooser has been seen through and all judgements been illuminated as empty arisings.
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Mar 12, 2019 13:39:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 13:39:07 GMT -5
Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁
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Mar 12, 2019 13:44:34 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 13:44:34 GMT -5
Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Realization though will make it far less likely that any pattern of happenings will get seriously judged as 'bad life choices.' After all, if we're talking SR, the volitional chooser has been seen through and all judgements been illuminated as empty arisings. Wasn't talking about the self-judgement of the "realized peep", but instead, how they look from the outside looking in, to someone else.
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Mar 12, 2019 13:47:33 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 13:47:33 GMT -5
Realization though will make it far less likely that any pattern of happenings will get seriously judged as 'bad life choices.' After all, if we're talking SR, the volitional chooser has been seen through and all judgements been illuminated as empty arisings. Wasn't talking about the self-judgement of the "realized peep", but instead, how they look from the outside looking in, to someone else. Oh yes, okay then, I agree completely.
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Mar 12, 2019 13:50:24 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 13:50:24 GMT -5
Wasn't talking about the self-judgement of the "realized peep", but instead, how they look from the outside looking in, to someone else. Oh yes, okay then, I agree completely.
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Mar 12, 2019 15:27:48 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 12, 2019 15:27:48 GMT -5
Yes. In everyday life people periodically get so deeply involved in what they're doing that they don't reflect ABOUT what they're doing. If it's really deep, then even self-referential thinking ceases. Usually this occurs during activities that one finds enjoyable or particularly interesting. Attention shifts from reflective thoughts to whatever is happening. This is a form of samadhi, which can be defined as a state of "psychological unity." People can become so attentive and so focused upon what's happening that they totally lose track of time. Everyone has had these kinds of experiences, but they're usually intermittent. Samadhi can't become permanent until the illusion of selfhood has been seen through and non-abidance has been attained. The Buddha called it a "non-attained attainment" because there isn't a "me" at the center of that happening. I'm screwed then because no amount of talking gets me closer to "seeing through," actually increases the skepticism. Jesus said "judge a tree by its fruit" sometimes that fruit ain't looking too appetizing. But permanent samadhi, mushin, whatever, makes me drool. I actually feel that the biggest obstaclle isn't seeing through the illusion for me. I think it's the folks around me will be unnerved, but I guess that's part of not seeing through the illusion. Two things from my tradition. One, playing a role. When self has lost its grip, instead of being the self, one can act the role you once were. So you can *still be* the person your friends and family expect. I do this to a certain extent with family. But then I am also honest with direct questions, and usually add, don't ask if you don't want to know. They don't ask much. Second, external considering. self is absorbed in internal considering, worrying/wondering what others think about us. External considering is not so easy. First, you try to see from their perspective, put yourself in their shoes. Then, when necessary or when suits the situation, you act towards them how you see they would wish you to act. This is actually a good test for seeing "through self", that is, if in fact one has. This, external considering, is combining-with one above, playing a role, being an actor. External considering is considering others.
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