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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 10:43:26 GMT -5
First off, Rupert is talking about deliberate creation (i.e. how do I manifest my desires? aka where's my stuff?), not LOA (i.e. that which is like unto itself is drawn). .. on a more serious note, it seems to me most people miss this distinction as rather subtle, despite the care you always take to make it. Yes, most criticism I see directed at LOA is actually directed at deliberate creation.
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 11:05:40 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that .
Who is required to live in poverty? How does that requirement arise? In what circumstance is poverty a necessity?
Talk sense to me, tenka.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 11:07:24 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. There is always only one requirement for manifesting your desire: alignment with your desire. That's it. Ask and it is given. Realists don't believe that, of course, so they have to create within the limits of their own beliefs, which require them to work hard, be patient and determined. That's because the realist is fact oriented (i.e. they focus on what has already been manifested by someone). But if what-is takes up most of your attention, then you cannot move beyond what-is, because you keep recreating what-is. That's why facing reality and being realistic won't get you anywhere in this deliberate creation business. You see, with your belief system, just day-dreaming it into being wouldn't work, even though that would be the only requirement. So can you see how you are creating your own facts of what works and what doesn't work?
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 11:47:44 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. Correct. However, since your natural state is one of absolute well-being, the 'work' is more like getting out of the way, to let that which is natural be. IOW, the work is to chill out!
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 11:51:56 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that . Why would someone be 'required' to live in poverty?
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 11:54:35 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that . The way I see it, nobody is required to "live in poverty". Poverty results ultimately from one or more liming beliefs held by the pauper, most likely unconscious beliefs that may have been unfounded and never taken care of. For example, "if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that", is a belief. When you don't like what you experience, you have to identify the beliefs that cause it. It is what to some degree psychoanalysis does, and age and past-life regression do too. Each belief once identified, and most likely seen as being unfounded, or at least unfounded anymore, can be suspended and replaced with a constructive belief. Consequently the current experience will change, and usually rapidly. If it doesn't change, there might be other beliefs that need identification, and closure. Even from the perspective that the current predicament was "selected" before birth, it was selected only to be dealt with, not to be experienced as suffering. Suffering is a symptom, not a cure. Suffering is optional, yes.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 12:01:55 GMT -5
I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I often look at this topic from the context of athletic performance. I think Lolly is too. Athletic performance is a good dissolver of bullshit - there is a stopwatch, or a weight rack, or an opponent punching you. It's pretty simple. To be fair, I think some of the effortless / immediate manifesting ideas may apply more in other contexts. I used to swim competitively, and I grew up with a fair amount of magical thinking and used to try to Jedi-mind-trick myself into swimming faster in various ways. It did have some effect, but not much. Later I stumbled into a team that pushed me to train and endure pain way beyond what I thought I could do, and beyond what I done previously. It was then that I saw the most dramatic improvement of my life. So these discussions about "manifesting" sometimes seem suspiciously abstract and divorced from first person accounts and demonstrations. If one of you can get in a pool and swim 200 meters freestyle in 1:45, just from being in "alignment", please demonstrate. 🏊♂️ ⏱ 🙂 That's the Randi trap again. You are asking the impossible. How can you try to prove a point to someone and be in alignment at the same time? When you are in alignment you don't care what anybody thinks. When you care what someone thinks, you are not in alignment. But more importantly, it would be illogical given your strong disbelief that LOA would match you up with someone who could show you a 200m swim in less than 1:45. First you would have to believe that it is possible before you can attract someone who can show that it is possible. If you don't believe it possible, the people you will attract that are willing to play your silly game will all fail. And then you say, see I told you it doesn't work! Well, duh!
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 12:25:41 GMT -5
I often look at this topic from the context of athletic performance. I think Lolly is too. Athletic performance is a good dissolver of bullshit - there is a stopwatch, or a weight rack, or an opponent punching you. It's pretty simple. To be fair, I think some of the effortless / immediate manifesting ideas may apply more in other contexts. I used to swim competitively, and I grew up with a fair amount of magical thinking and used to try to Jedi-mind-trick myself into swimming faster in various ways. It did have some effect, but not much. Later I stumbled into a team that pushed me to train and endure pain way beyond what I thought I could do, and beyond what I done previously. It was then that I saw the most dramatic improvement of my life. So these discussions about "manifesting" sometimes seem suspiciously abstract and divorced from first person accounts and demonstrations. If one of you can get in a pool and swim 200 meters freestyle in 1:45, just from being in "alignment", please demonstrate. 🏊♂️ ⏱ 🙂 The tautology is: "if work is required to manifest the result, then work was required. " The existential question is: "can a human being manifest instantaneously?" My conditioning precludes me from arguing for magical thinking with any sincerity. It's like this: Robert Randi is his own worst enemy.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 12:27:42 GMT -5
I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I agree that manifestation is already happening, but as soon as we talk of 'want' we aspire to a future experience. I also think the LOA narrative on the one hand makes a simple matter of confidence unnecessarily convoluted, and on the other hand is a crude version kamma philosophy. The vague allusion to 'alignment' - the lack thereof - perhaps suggests that people are inhibited by complex arrays of destructive negativity and self-impressions. I can't be sure because spiritual rhetoric is intentionally, and therefore, dishonestly ambiguous. I'm saying people do have such negative thinking and self-impressionism holding them back, and I suggest being realistic about it. It's wrong to start thinking nonsense Hicks said like, 'Oh I'm not aligned- that why' (not a quote). It's better to recognise in a completely factual way, 'it is precisely this negativity and these self-depreciating impressions that are holding me back, or attracting this crap'. I'm not saying there's anything wrong and it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can resolve it or maybe you can't. These sorts of beliefs are tricky and sticky and usually have a pile of evidence backing them up.
Actually, it's the other way around. Karma is a crude version of LOA. It can't get any more simple or elegant than LOA. Also, in order to get what you want, you don't even need to understand LOA. All you need to understand is that good feels good and bad feels bad, and then act accordingly.
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Post by maxdprophet on Nov 28, 2022 12:36:34 GMT -5
Okay so "LOA is always operating in everything and thru everything." So how does extinction of dinosaurs via asteroid impact get explained in terms of LOA? Negative group think?
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Post by andrew on Nov 28, 2022 12:38:03 GMT -5
I often look at this topic from the context of athletic performance. I think Lolly is too. Athletic performance is a good dissolver of bullshit - there is a stopwatch, or a weight rack, or an opponent punching you. It's pretty simple. To be fair, I think some of the effortless / immediate manifesting ideas may apply more in other contexts. I used to swim competitively, and I grew up with a fair amount of magical thinking and used to try to Jedi-mind-trick myself into swimming faster in various ways. It did have some effect, but not much. Later I stumbled into a team that pushed me to train and endure pain way beyond what I thought I could do, and beyond what I done previously. It was then that I saw the most dramatic improvement of my life. So these discussions about "manifesting" sometimes seem suspiciously abstract and divorced from first person accounts and demonstrations. If one of you can get in a pool and swim 200 meters freestyle in 1:45, just from being in "alignment", please demonstrate. 🏊♂️ ⏱ 🙂 That's the Randi trap again. You are asking the impossible. How can you try to prove a point to someone and be in alignment at the same time? When you are in alignment you don't care what anybody thinks. When you care what someone thinks, you are not in alignment. But more importantly, it would be illogical given your strong disbelief that LOA would match you up with someone who could show you a 200m swim in less than 1:45. First you would have to believe that it is possible before you can attract someone who can show that it is possible. If you don't believe it possible, the people you will attract that are willing to play your silly game will all fail. And then you say, see I told you it doesn't work! Well, duh! Yes. Also, I find it a little hard to imagine that this is a desire that can be aligned to, because there's a measurement built into the desire, and measurements are rational and limiting. There's also a competitive element which strikes me as incompatible. Alignment is a felt sense that isn't compatible with number crunching and egoic goals. One could align easily to the desire to swim with elegance, grace and power, or to experience joyful swimming (or experience themselves as a joyful swimmer). This can all be felt. I've noted that some folks like to focus attention sometimes on manifesting 'specific' amounts of money. I've no real idea how successful they are. I guess they can imagine the feeling of seeing that specific amount of money in their bank each week, and that might work for them. Personally, I can't see the point in focusing on money, because money is just a means to an end. Makes more sense to me to focus on the actual desire, and if monetary flow happens as part of that, then that's fine. Also, as someone else said (maybe laffy, not sure), effort might be part of the unfolding. If I wanted to experience myself as being very strong, then as part of that, I might be guided to commit to a challenging weight training programme. In alignment, we follow our inner guidance, and that isn't always 'perfect effortlessness'. It might mean doing some uncomfortable or awkward things. I value health highly, and generally focus on it in an aligned way. As part of that, I've been to the dentist a few times lately, which can be a bit unpleasant (but that's fine). For someone else, it might mean having surgery on something. Unpleasant, but might be necessary as part of the unfolding movement towards excellent health. Which reminds me, I received psychic surgery on an old back problem recently. It was brilliant. All done on zoom. Results have been excellent.
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Post by andrew on Nov 28, 2022 12:42:27 GMT -5
Okay so "LOA is always operating in everything and thru everything." So how does extinction of dinosaurs via asteroid impact get explained in terms of LOA? Negative group think? That assumes that their extinction was negative for them. Sometimes death is the highest and least resistant path to joy. That doesn't answer your question, but I wanted to make that point. At a subconscious level of consciousness, I would guess that they had fulfilled their time on the planet. They were ready to leave. Ready for the next adventure. At this level, nobody and nothing leaves before they are ready, even if the conscious mind-body protests.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 12:49:28 GMT -5
[ Rupert Spira:]…The law of attraction is … it's never it's never really attracted me as an idea….but what does attract me is that …what does interest me is this: the distinction between a personal desire and an impersonal desire. Personal desire comes from the felt sense of being a separate self. And our desire arises on behalf of that that self -- or that fragment -- and it's very difficult for the universe to fulfill a personal desire because the desire is at odds with the reality of the universe. That's why personal desires, even if they seem to be fulfilled in the short term, tend not to lead to a deep sense of fulfillment or satisfaction. However, an impersonal desire is one that comes from our true nature, from joy, from peace, from love, and seeks to express itself in the world. So it still manifests as a desire but it's a desire that rises on behalf of the whole… or I could say it's a desire that arises on behalf of peace of love of truth of beauty and such a desire is in line with and an expression of the reality of the universe and therefore it's very easy for the universe to fulfill these desires. I think this is a less personal way of thinking of the law of attraction: that, if we find personal desires arising in us… rather than seeking to fulfill them, we should seek the person or the self on whose behalf they arise. But if we find an impersonal desire arising in us… that is, a desire that arises from love, truth, peace, beauty, justice and so on, then we should feel free to go out into the world and fulfill it because it will not only bring joy to ourselves it will bring joy to others. Now, again: you are the creator of your own reality because you think the thoughts that attract your experiences. No one else can think those thoughts for you and therefore attract for you and create in your reality. This is true for everybody else as well. You cannot create in their reality either. Which means you cannot bring joy to someone who has decided to be miserable. You need their cooperation. That's why interactions with other people are called co-creation. If they have decided to stay miserable forevermore, there is nothing you or anybody else can do to change that, even if you are exploding with joy right in front of their faces. At best what could happen is, you are a shining example of joy and they are done being miserable and decide to follow your example, i.e. you inspire them. But you cannot help a world that wants to wallow in misery. You'll just annoy them. That's what's wrong with world peace. And the only requirement for the fulfillment of a desire is that you are a match to your desire. In that sense, it is as easy to create a castle or 100 million dollars as it is to create a button or 100 dollars. The exact same principle applies, just a different order of magnitude. So there are no desires that are naturally easier fulfilled than others. There are only desires that you have more resistance to than others and so some come easier than others. But that's on you, not the universe. The universe always only operates based on the ask and it is given rule. If you don't let in what you've asked for, that's your problem. Also, when we talk about the impersonal and impersonal desires, then we have to talk about Source and extensions of Source, which, if you think it really thru, makes the distinction between personal and impersonal desires superfluous. Because at the end of the day, which desire does come from Source and which doesn't when Source is all there is and ever will be and whatever is manifested is an extension of Source? Which desire is not an extension of Source then?
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 12:54:51 GMT -5
Okay so "LOA is always operating in everything and thru everything." So how does extinction of dinosaurs via asteroid impact get explained in terms of LOA? Negative group think? You are skeptical. Me too. Do you have any argument against LOA?
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 13:10:35 GMT -5
Okay so "LOA is always operating in everything and thru everything." So how does extinction of dinosaurs via asteroid impact get explained in terms of LOA? Negative group think? You seem to imply that that was a bad thing for all those involved. And from the physical perspective, it may seem that way. But you have to look at it from the non-physical perspective. As Seth always said, every death is a suicide. Mass events are no exception. Think about it this way: when you go to a movie and the movie is over and suddenly everyone gets up and walks out of the movie theater, would you put that down to negative group think? Or could it also be just the exact opposite? Doesn't everyone just go on with their lives elsewhere after having had a good time together? You see, the goal is not to hang in there as long as possible. A long life is not necessarily a life well lived. And a short life is not necessarily a life wasted. You're here on vacation, you came for a ride, with a more or less clear itinerary. Once you've accomplished what you came for, you move on.
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