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Post by laughter on Jan 25, 2018 11:50:33 GMT -5
Pain and suffering intertwine, one creating, reinforcing and worsening the other. If human beings were machines it would be possible to dissect this process and come up with a blueprint for how it happens and rescue them from it. That there are people suffering is proof enough that this isn't the case.
It's true that at the root of all psychological suffering is a bogus belief, but putting a not in front of that particular belief is futile, as the end of it is acausal. The secondary pain from the suffering in this regard is ultimately not within control of the human being who is suffering, and that pain, is, sadly, all too real. For example, tension in the back and neck muscles from a dark psychological state of someone under pressure and working at a keyboard can directly precede serious back issues like a slipped disc. Regardless of what is taken to be cause, and what is taken to be effect in that scenario, the body and mind aren't really two separate things, and if we accept that there are limits to the intellects grasp of this nonseperation, then we can acknowledge the reality of that pain, without resorting to validating the bogus belief underlying the suffering.
Awakening can be the beginning of a process of becoming conscious that makes the end of the bogus belief likely, as, although that end is acuasal, it does seem to correlate with certain life experience and realization described by those who are free of it. And while here I do reveal more than one belief of my own, for the most part, these are ideas that are being used to refer to a particular absence of belief, rather than either a belief, or a disbelief.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 26, 2018 17:33:29 GMT -5
Yes, precisely. This is a conversation I've tried to have with ZD several times (have given numerous examples). His CC tells him everything is all right, everything is perfect. ~Looking down~ everything might be perfect, but thousands and even millions of people live s*t**y lives (most recent example, the 13 children held captive by their parents, I don't think everything was perfect with them. Another recent example, the gymnastics doctor who molested over 150 girls, explain that ZD). Most people are driven by unconscious forces, within themselves. This makes for conflict, interior war even. So bogus belief is not really bogus belief. Bogus beliefs have an 'iron clad' basis in the neural structure, not easily overcome, not imaginary in the sense that ZD uses the word, whatsoever. Many people do what "needs to be done", in the service of a warped psychology, and what they do almost inevitably leads them further into the morass. Yea, I think spiritual people imagine themselves to be experts in psychology, but they tend to deal in ideals rather than real human lives. Yes. People aren't even aware of what compels them. There is a difference between things based on real lived experience and completely delusional things, so the 'imaginary' has a few unexplained caveats. Well....the "spiritual people" seem to make the psychological suffering irrelevant, or even disappear. They seem to be saying the suffering is OK. Actions have consequences, always. This is an inescapable fact. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2018 10:08:14 GMT -5
Yea, I think spiritual people imagine themselves to be experts in psychology, but they tend to deal in ideals rather than real human lives. Yes. People aren't even aware of what compels them. There is a difference between things based on real lived experience and completely delusional things, so the 'imaginary' has a few unexplained caveats. Well....the "spiritual people" seem to make the psychological suffering irrelevant, or even disappear. They seem to be saying the suffering is OK. Actions have consequences, always. This is an inescapable fact. Sages do not ignore suffering or pain; they do not make it disappear; and they definitely don't say that it's okay. They simply see everything that's happening from what we might call "a more-unified perspective." You have said in the past that you can't accept the idea that God/the Absolute has anything to do with activities that you think of as evil. Sages do not consider murderers or child molesters evil; they consider them ignorant. What is it that ignorant people ignore? Find THAT, and then see if ideas like good and evil are applicable. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 1, 2018 17:25:44 GMT -5
The intellect cannot understand what "perfect" means without having a CC experience, but no other word points as directly to the truth of the matter. Not good or bad; just perfect. As Flora Courtois wrote: "The whole world seemed to have reversed itself, to have turned outside in. Activity flowed simply and effortlessly, and to my amazement, seemingly without thought. Instead of following my old sequence of learning, thinking, planning, and acting, action had taken precedence and whatever was learned was surprisingly incidental. Yet nothing ever seemed to go out of bounds; there was no alternation between self-control and letting go but rather a perfect rightness and spontaneity to all this flowing activity....in some indefinable way I knew with absolute certainty the changeless unity and harmony in charge of the universe and the inseparability of all seeming opposites.....I now saw that wholeness and holiness are one. I knew now that eternity is here always, and there is no higher, no deeper, no separate past or future time or place. How could love be other than this all-encompassing Oneness....?" But that doesn't answer the imperfection. Something is amiss. ....(Related, saw Hostiles today. The previews did not entice me. The 'one word' good reviews did. And I read Rotten Tomatoes synopsis. So decided to see. Yes, very violent. But it turned out to be very worthwhile. Very moving. IOW, it somehow-to some extent shows "perfection" within the imperfection). .... If the mind remains quiescent, and there is no verbal reflection ABOUT whatever is happening, then there will be no thoughts about good or bad, perfection or imperfection; there will only be "what is," and the body/mind will act in whatever way it must. One will respond intelligently and spontaneously, but it will not be an intellectually-driven form of response; it will be direct, and it will occur in mental silence. This happens all the time to everyone throughout the day, but because most people are addicted to reflective thought, their minds will not be sufficiently silent to apprehend the difference between these kinds of direct responses to life events and intellectually-driven responses. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 2, 2018 12:47:52 GMT -5
But that doesn't answer the imperfection. Something is amiss. ....(Related, saw Hostiles today. The previews did not entice me. The 'one word' good reviews did. And I read Rotten Tomatoes synopsis. So decided to see. Yes, very violent. But it turned out to be very worthwhile. Very moving. IOW, it somehow-to some extent shows "perfection" within the imperfection). .... If the mind remains quiescent, and there is no verbal reflection ABOUT whatever is happening, then there will be no thoughts about good or bad, perfection or imperfection; there will only be "what is," and the body/mind will act in whatever way it must. One will respond intelligently and spontaneously, but it will not be an intellectually-driven form of response; it will be direct, and it will occur in mental silence. This happens all the time to everyone throughout the day, but because most people are addicted to reflective thought, their minds will not be sufficiently silent to apprehend the difference between these kinds of direct responses to life events and intellectually-driven responses. But I'm not talking about you or me. (See the AI thread page 8). |
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Post by enigma on Feb 2, 2018 14:51:15 GMT -5
My experience is that emotional pain is not unlike physical pain. In fact, the breakup of a relationship, death of a spouse, the guilt of some accident one caused, etc, is often felt exactly like physical pain is, in the body, except it is usually located in the pit of the stomach (solar plexus). It can be just as intense, wave-like or constant, and debilitating as a broken rib, broken back or abscessed tooth. It is affected by the same laws as physical pain. If you resist, it persists. If made friends with (accepted as unavoidable) it follows its natural course of resolution.
"Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?” Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.”
“Bring acceptance into your non-acceptance. Bring surrender into your non-surrender. Then see what happens.”
“Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and become comfortable not knowing.” ~ Eckhart Tolle That's what I find questionable because at the basis of emotional pain is a bogus thought/belief. And so you have LOA working against you there. Relaxing into grief sounds absurd. Physical pain is different. Yeah, relaxing into grief is, at the very least, an unclear way to talk about releasing the struggle. I also would not liken emotional and physical pain, but they do have a thought generated feeling component in common. Ideally, physical pain is sensation only, the function of which is to alert the mind to a danger affecting the body. As such, it need not cause suffering. The suffering is the result of what mind does with that sensation, and when mind stops doing that, there is sensation only. The tricky part, of course, is how to get mind to stop turning sensation into suffering. Surrender and acceptance point to the correct states but don't offer a means of getting there. To me, a high degree of consciousness is required: The unconscious fears and motivations and mind games must cease. As a part of that, one must also be able to take up a position as observer of mind rather than be caught up in the movement of mind as though one is only that movement. IOW, one must be positioned where they are and not where they think they are. Some clarity will be required in the form of realization. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 2, 2018 14:55:59 GMT -5
That's what I find questionable because at the basis of emotional pain is a bogus thought/belief. And so you have LOA working against you there. Relaxing into grief sounds absurd. Physical pain is different. Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible. What you disagree on is that at the basis of physical pain is also a thought. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 2, 2018 15:03:08 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with justlikeyou. There is emotional pain/suffering/psychological pain that is worse than physical pain. Much of the world ~revolves~ around this kind of "pain", the arts which mirrors the world, TV, film, novels. And all this is centered on the self, the kind of self we-are. Most here have probably heard about the children who were recently freed from the captivity of their parents, 13 children and adults I think it was, the oldest 29. Unimaginable. (Chained, malnourished, not allowed to go to a toilet, watched parents eating pie and cake, got a bath once a year). I heard last night that the girl who notified authorities planned her escape for two years. The physical wounds of those children will eventually heal. The psychological wounds may never heal. Some people kill themselves because it seems they can escape angst in no other way. (Angst, although "psychological", is exceptionally painful and debilitating). "You are the world". J Krishnamurti Again, at the root of psychological pain is a bogus belief. Physical pain is different. At the root of intense physical pain that results in suffering, is also a set of thoughts. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 2, 2018 17:52:27 GMT -5
Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible. What you disagree on is that at the basis of physical pain is also a thought. What I am saying is that most children are feelers long before they are thinkers. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 2, 2018 19:40:19 GMT -5
What you disagree on is that at the basis of physical pain is also a thought. What I am saying is that most children are feelers long before they are thinkers. I got that. You're also speculating that your disagreement is the result of Reefs not relating to that. I'm saying it's something else. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 3, 2018 8:06:59 GMT -5
What I am saying is that most children are feelers long before they are thinkers. I got that. You're also speculating that your disagreement is the result of Reefs not relating to that. I'm saying it's something else. I have no problem with the idea that thoughts feed emotion or that emotion feed thoughts. It happens. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2018 18:45:13 GMT -5
I got that. You're also speculating that your disagreement is the result of Reefs not relating to that. I'm saying it's something else. I have no problem with the idea that thoughts feed emotion or that emotion feed thoughts. It happens. I didn't mean to suggest that you did. I'm saying Reefs sees physical feeling as purely physical and therefore not amenable to changes in mind the way emotions are. Or so it seems to me. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 4, 2018 8:59:38 GMT -5
I have no problem with the idea that thoughts feed emotion or that emotion feed thoughts. It happens. I didn't mean to suggest that you did. I'm saying Reefs sees physical feeling as purely physical and therefore not amenable to changes in mind the way emotions are. Or so it seems to me. I see. I was speaking about how children - even before knowing how to string words together to form a thought - can experience harsh or unkind words - unloving and impatient words - abusive words - with a physiological reaction/sensation - usually in the pit of the stomach. I suspect it is fear based in some way, and that itself being an instinctive reaction, needing no thought to produce a defensive reaction. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 4, 2018 13:29:46 GMT -5
I didn't mean to suggest that you did. I'm saying Reefs sees physical feeling as purely physical and therefore not amenable to changes in mind the way emotions are. Or so it seems to me. I see. I was speaking about how children - even before knowing how to string words together to form a thought - can experience harsh or unkind words - unloving and impatient words - abusive words - with a physiological reaction/sensation - usually in the pit of the stomach. I suspect it is fear based in some way, and that itself being an instinctive reaction, needing no thought to produce a defensive reaction. As I see it, children immediately start making associations between discomfort and what precedes discomfort. This can include soiling diapers and harsh sounds. The child doesn't need to think, as we would normally define it, in order to respond in fear, or even delight if the association is a pleasurable one. Having said that, the child seems to be born with what I call certain propensities, and this might be what you refer to as instinct. It might be true that there's an inborn fear reaction to harsh noises. |
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Post by ouroboros on Feb 4, 2018 15:54:28 GMT -5
Again, at the root of psychological pain is a bogus belief. Physical pain is different. At the root of intense physical pain that results in suffering, is also a set of thoughts. So a baby who hasn't yet developed complex sets of thoughts, and is experiencing intense physical pain, isn't suffering by your definition? |
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