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Post by laughter on Oct 26, 2017 6:41:56 GMT -5
From what I can tell from the outside looking in, the Zen approach is to ignore logic altogether as a non-issue. From what I've read, the Hindu-Advaita Vedanta (AV)/guru culture takes an altogether different approach in explicitly requiring a phase where a candidate's mind is reconditioned into a materially ordered state. This division in that culture is in the context of AV as a numerically small subset of Hinduism with most of it centered on devotion to one or another God head. The different schools of devotional thought -- and here I include Christianity -- seem to me to differ widely on the topic of the rational mind. Some new-age influenced religious thinkers, in particular, seem to be revisiting that in these decades as a natural response to the cultural march into modernity and beyond. They approach it from a number of ways, including self-improvement or social altrusim or as a way to try to justify faith. In terms of these forum dialogs, I've found they can get to a place pretty quick were, as you imply, logic becomes counterproductive, but from my experience with that on this forum, peeps are at least as likely to just use that as a way to keep the tornado spinning as not. I'm finding out that the overuse of logic isn't an exclusively western phenomenon. Doesn't surprise me at all. Peeps are ultimately the same everywhere and just as no two are exactly alike, every culture has something different to offer. It's just another perfect expression of the existential fact. My guess is that overuse of logic is going to happen eventually in any civilization given a long enough continuity of what we might call something like .. cultural intellect. And the East has had quite a deeper and longer continuity that than the West. Japan is interesting in this regard in that the Zen culture that recognizes this overuse was prominent enough for them to eventually export it. Although any self-respecting Korean will tell you the Japanese stole that from them along with everything else good about Japan.
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Post by laughter on Oct 26, 2017 6:44:28 GMT -5
Spiritual people need to negate logic so they can talk nonsense, though probably from within the spiritual trance it seems quite valid. Fliddleforks moak at the grenstricluar zondofication green, but, no.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 26, 2017 7:20:04 GMT -5
The basic teaching of Hinduism is the soul/atma is within everyone's hearts. It is sitting side by side with the supersoul/paramatma, the localize expansion of Vishnu/Brahman. In Srimad Bhagavatam, this Vishnu/Brahman is Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Who is Vasudeva, the Cause of all causes. So, there is no amount of reasoning using one's intellect to justify why man exists except it is willed by this Person Consciousness. The question is asked in this regard, " Which came first, the chicken or egg? " The answer, of course, is the chicken. Same thing with creation. According to Srimad Bhagavatam, in the beginning, there is in existence only the Adi Purusa/First Person. He caused the cosmos to appear with stars, planets, living entities simply by glancing. Can you believe that?
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Post by zendancer on Oct 26, 2017 9:25:59 GMT -5
The basic teaching of Hinduism is the soul/atma is within everyone's hearts. It is sitting side by side with the supersoul/paramatma, the localize expansion of Vishnu/Brahman. In Srimad Bhagavatam, this Vishnu/Brahman is Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Who is Vasudeva, the Cause of all causes. So, there is no amount of reasoning using one's intellect to justify why man exists except it is willed by this Person Consciousness. The question is asked in this regard, " Which came first, the chicken or egg? " The answer, of course, is the chicken. Same thing with creation. According to Srimad Bhagavatam, in the beginning, there is in existence only the Adi Purusa/First Person. He caused the cosmos to appear with stars, planets, living entities simply by glancing. Can you believe that? Experiencing the truth directly is far more important than believing anything. Faith and belief are unnecessary after the truth has been apprehended directly. Secondhand information can be useful as a pointer, only.
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Post by enigma on Oct 26, 2017 9:50:06 GMT -5
It sounds like it's an illusion to you, but I think that's because you don't understand it. When I was taking the preparatory course, Med Tech, for proper medicine, there was a subject in the course entitled SEROLOGIC. It's a science that deals with the study of sera/serum. It's blood plasma devoid of the white and red blood cells. Logic tells us that antibodies present in the serum can be detected by using an antigen specific for that particular antibody/antibodies. Serology is the science that deals in the study and detection of communicable diseases say, Aids, Hepatitis, Venereal diseases. The logic of it is that if you introduce a foreign body into the blood of a non-immune patient. It will produce a disease equivalent to what that antigen does to the body e.g. Hiv, rabies virus. Logic has something to do with predicting outcomes. But if you get down of what logic or real logic is about, no one can explain how that two airplanes toppled the World Trade Center buildings on that fateful day of September 11, 2001. It defies logic, real or unreal why it happened. So many theories behind it. But if I tell how it was done, you will never believe me. The title of that program was " When does the day begin? " You want me to divulge the plan to you? Nah, never mind. You might say I am kidding. Nor does it makes sense/logic to you at all. Your mind seems to drift around a lot. Could you bottom line this whole logic biznis for me?
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 26, 2017 16:33:20 GMT -5
The basic teaching of Hinduism is the soul/atma is within everyone's hearts. It is sitting side by side with the supersoul/paramatma, the localize expansion of Vishnu/Brahman. In Srimad Bhagavatam, this Vishnu/Brahman is Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Who is Vasudeva, the Cause of all causes. So, there is no amount of reasoning using one's intellect to justify why man exists except it is willed by this Person Consciousness. The question is asked in this regard, " Which came first, the chicken or egg? " The answer, of course, is the chicken. Same thing with creation. According to Srimad Bhagavatam, in the beginning, there is in existence only the Adi Purusa/First Person. He caused the cosmos to appear with stars, planets, living entities simply by glancing. Can you believe that? Experiencing the truth directly is far more important than believing anything. Faith and belief are unnecessary after the truth has been apprehended directly. Secondhand information can be useful as a pointer, only. The truth is always there. It's even experienced by the insane. Yet when the insane tells you about it, you won't believe right? Experiencing the truth is akin to going insane. No sane person will understand a person experiencing the truth unless that sane person experiences it himself. If you want to count how many are experiencing the truth? Go and visit mental hospitals. There is a story in Srimad Bhagavatam of King Rhabhadeva. He was said to be an incarnation of God. He went around the city like a madman. He wore no dress. He left behind stools which did not smell. His stools were even fragrant.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 26, 2017 16:40:10 GMT -5
When I was taking the preparatory course, Med Tech, for proper medicine, there was a subject in the course entitled SEROLOGIC. It's a science that deals with the study of sera/serum. It's blood plasma devoid of the white and red blood cells. Logic tells us that antibodies present in the serum can be detected by using an antigen specific for that particular antibody/antibodies. Serology is the science that deals in the study and detection of communicable diseases say, Aids, Hepatitis, Venereal diseases. The logic of it is that if you introduce a foreign body into the blood of a non-immune patient. It will produce a disease equivalent to what that antigen does to the body e.g. Hiv, rabies virus. Logic has something to do with predicting outcomes. But if you get down of what logic or real logic is about, no one can explain how that two airplanes toppled the World Trade Center buildings on that fateful day of September 11, 2001. It defies logic, real or unreal why it happened. So many theories behind it. But if I tell how it was done, you will never believe me. The title of that program was " When does the day begin? " You want me to divulge the plan to you? Nah, never mind. You might say I am kidding. Nor does it makes sense/logic to you at all. Your mind seems to drift around a lot. Could you bottom line this whole logic biznis for me? Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected. A newly wedded couple logically in months time the bride gets pregnant. A patient who is sick by logic gets well what his doctor prescribed. Yet there are cases like cancer won't heal even the best medical attention is given to cure it. And many won't be able to explain why the cancer disappeared through faith/miracle.
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Post by enigma on Oct 26, 2017 18:43:54 GMT -5
Your mind seems to drift around a lot. Could you bottom line this whole logic biznis for me? Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected. A newly wedded couple logically in months time the bride gets pregnant. A patient who is sick by logic gets well what his doctor prescribed. Yet there are cases like cancer won't heal even the best medical attention is given to cure it. And many won't be able to explain why the cancer disappeared through faith/miracle. You're drifting again, but before you did, you said "Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected." Did you mean an explanation of HOW/WHY things turn out as expected?
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 26, 2017 18:55:07 GMT -5
Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected. A newly wedded couple logically in months time the bride gets pregnant. A patient who is sick by logic gets well what his doctor prescribed. Yet there are cases like cancer won't heal even the best medical attention is given to cure it. And many won't be able to explain why the cancer disappeared through faith/miracle. You're drifting again, but before you did, you said "Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected." Did you mean an explanation of HOW/WHY things turn out as expected? When I was in college, one of my favorite subject was English because we had a pretty English teacher. But when she was replaced by a gay English teacher, I got bored. Because he was always asking us the HOW/WHY. Funny, isn't it?
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Post by xander17 on Oct 26, 2017 23:54:37 GMT -5
So, which is more important for living, body or mind? Neither can function without the other in the physical plane, so the activity of establishing a heirarchy seems pointless.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 27, 2017 8:05:14 GMT -5
So, which is more important for living, body or mind? Neither can function without the other in the physical plane, so the activity of establishing a heirarchy seems pointless. The question came up because my father, a physician specializing in pathology, dermatology and family medicine is bedridden. He has pulmonary emphysema and heart failure. At 88 years old, he can no longer go to the clinic to heal his sick patients. If only his body is well, his brilliant mind could still be of use in healing the sick. So, I took over my father's clinic and treated his patients two years ago. I am not like my father who has a photographic mind. I am just a mediocre doctor. But because my body is still well, I can put to use my being a doctor treating the sick unlike my father who can't because his body is dilapidated. I was wondering what if I carry my father on my back and do the examining of the patients in the clinic. While my father writes down the prescription after a diagnosis has been made. What do you think?
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2017 14:32:55 GMT -5
You're drifting again, but before you did, you said "Logic is simply an explanation of things turn out as expected." Did you mean an explanation of HOW/WHY things turn out as expected? When I was in college, one of my favorite subject was English because we had a pretty English teacher. But when she was replaced by a gay English teacher, I got bored. Because he was always asking us the HOW/WHY. Funny, isn't it? You may be confused about how/why you were excited by the pretty teacher and bored by the gay teacher. In any event, you didn't seem to learn much from either. I was just trying to make sense of your nonsense statement.
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2017 14:34:12 GMT -5
So, which is more important for living, body or mind? Neither can function without the other in the physical plane, so the activity of establishing a heirarchy seems pointless. Makes sense.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 27, 2017 16:34:50 GMT -5
When I was in college, one of my favorite subject was English because we had a pretty English teacher. But when she was replaced by a gay English teacher, I got bored. Because he was always asking us the HOW/WHY. Funny, isn't it? You may be confused about how/why you were excited by the pretty teacher and bored by the gay teacher. In any event, you didn't seem to learn much from either. I was just trying to make sense of your nonsense statement. Learning English from a pretty English teacher was difficult for me wanting to find the meaning of what the words she says the moment her legs are apart. With that gay English teacher it was rather more difficult to learn English from him because he always laughs when he mentions the words, " ...little, small, cute. " Then gets serious when he utters the words, " ...horribly large, frighteningly huge, superbly massive. " I wonder how a sissynse toad will react to that. Post Script: The pretty English teacher was a nun. The gay English teacher was a priest. 😁
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2017 19:34:40 GMT -5
You may be confused about how/why you were excited by the pretty teacher and bored by the gay teacher. In any event, you didn't seem to learn much from either. I was just trying to make sense of your nonsense statement. Learning English from a pretty English teacher was difficult for me wanting to find the meaning of what the words she says the moment her legs are apart. With that gay English teacher it was rather more difficult to learn English from him because he always laughs when he mentions the words, " ...little, small, cute. " Then gets serious when he utters the words, " ...horribly large, frighteningly huge, superbly massive. " I wonder how a sissynse toad will react to that. Post Script: The pretty English teacher was a nun. The gay English teacher was a priest. 😁 Mr Google wasn't able to help me with 'sissynse'. Do you think your pretty English teacher could help?
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