Is there a Divine Plan?

[aki]

One request: If you quote, please delete anything that you're not referring to if possible, because it makes a thread unclear.   Thanks


I just watched a clip with Matt Kahn about pain.  At one point he said that there's absolutely nothing happening that is not on the highest divine plan.

Here I get stuck when it goes beyond a certain degree, like the case of a group of kids that got treated with razorblades, electroshocks and rape over years again and again, or any kind of longtime-torture.

It's the old question: How can the highest loving divine allow or even plan for worst cruelties.


Let me investigate some options:


1.) there is no divine plan, everything goes mechanically according to natural laws of karma;

I can't adjust to this because I feel there are divine forces at work;


2.) the divine is there, but it acts only on some points, like when we pray for help;

As separation is not real, everything must be the divine, so even the worst things happening must be divine;


3.) As separation is not real, the victims also are not real;

Anyone who suffered strong enough knows that in the situation it doesn't matter wether it's an illusion or not;  suffering is real;


4.) Even such things can be part of the highest divine plan in order to give souls the experience they need for stopping;

But then what about animal-torture?


5.) No matter how artrociously it gets and no matter how long it stays, it will always be temporary;  

That's the only point I can make friends with;



If there's some intelligent input, I'd be grateful.  



Thanks

[stardustpilgrim]

Hey aki...no response yet...I understand from this forum. Many if not most here will disagree with the following. I take it that first there existed Supreme Originating Conscious Intelligence. It is It's nature to wish to manifest, to reproduce It's nature. If It simply copied Itself, It would simply Be Itself, remain Itself, there wouldn't be anything other that IT. (This is where you find nonduality, the view expressed mostly here on ST's).

So, to eventuality have new creativity and invention, eventual intelligent beings (you and me) must be "designed" with potential free will. And so the choosing must have very real consequences. There is the story of a Rabbi who was once asked by a student how he became so wise. He replied, by making good decisions. The student then asked, how did you learn to make good decisions. His reply, by making bad decisions. So this is life, deciding, and then living with the consequences of deciding.

So the badness and the evil of the world is the result of millions of decisions, multiplied, over thousands of years. So, human beings are pretty-much responsible for the world we live in. We live in the best possible world. Without consequences, no growing into wisdom, so the universe had to be set up in the manner it is.

[aki]

Hi there,

But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2016 21:28:02 GMT -5 aki said:

One request: If you quote, please delete anything that you're not referring to if possible, because it makes a thread unclear.   Thanks


2.) the divine is there, but it acts only on some points, like when we pray for help;

As separation is not real, everything must be the divine, so even the worst things happening must be divine;


If there's some intelligent input, I'd be grateful. 
Thanks

Are you familiar with your own divinity?

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -5 aki said:

Hi there,

But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?

Like for example the word "divine."

[aki]

Sept 4, 2016 10:04:01 GMT -5 @bakk said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:28:02 GMT -5 aki said:

Are you familiar with your own divinity?

Yes, but not continuously, and not under all circumstances.  Why do you ask?

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 10:48:06 GMT -5 aki said:

Sept 4, 2016 10:04:01 GMT -5 @bakk said:

Are you familiar with your own divinity?

Yes, but not continuously, and not under all circumstances.  Why do you ask?

Ok. Because I want to know what you will answer.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -5 aki said:

Hi there,

But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?

In the tradition I follow it is said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self. You became unconscious of your sense-of-being-as-awareness.

aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift. You can go back to the time when your sense of being, was awareness. This is the beginning of being conscious, a movement from conditioned thinking to conscious-ness, of being conscious-of-self. You can regain your sense of being-as-awareness, but now it is more, you are aware of being aware.

And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first.

To say there is no time is a completely conceptual idea. Has time passed since you woke up this morning? Yes, of course. To say it hasn't is imagination. So ask first, what is the nature of time?

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 12:11:35 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 4, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -5 aki said:

Hi there,

But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?

In the tradition I follow it ia said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self.

aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift.

And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first.

** Pokes fingers in eyes real hard. **

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 12:11:35 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 4, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -5 aki said:

Hi there,

But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?

In the tradition I follow it ia said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self.

aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift.

And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first.

To say there is no time is a completely conceptual idea. Has time passed since you woke up this morning? Yes, of course. To say it hasn't is imagination. So ask first, what is the nature of time?

No it hasn't. The morning got eaten by the lunchtime which got eaten by the afternoon.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2016 12:17:37 GMT -5 @bakk said:

Sept 4, 2016 12:11:35 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

In the tradition I follow it ia said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self.

aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift.

And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first.

To say there is no time is a completely conceptual idea. Has time passed since you woke up this morning? Yes, of course. To say it hasn't is imagination. So ask first, what is the nature of time?

No it hasn't. The morning got eaten by the lunchtime which got eaten by the afternoon.

That's just nonsense. Your state of mind, presently, experiences the flow of time. To say it doesn't is to live in illusion. Does that mean there isn't a state of no-time? No. But you can never get-there by wishing away time.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2016 12:15:48 GMT -5 @bakk said:

Sept 4, 2016 12:11:35 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

In the tradition I follow it ia said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self.

aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift.

And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first.

** Pokes fingers in eyes real hard. **

I hope only metaphorically

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 12:32:22 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 4, 2016 12:15:48 GMT -5 @bakk said:

** Pokes fingers in eyes real hard. **

I hope only metaphorically

No. The facepalm that happened got extended.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2016 12:33:49 GMT -5 @bakk said:

Sept 4, 2016 12:32:22 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

I hope only metaphorically

No. The facepalm that happened got extended.

If you were more self-aware, that can't have happened.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 12:31:10 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 4, 2016 12:17:37 GMT -5 @bakk said:

No it hasn't. The morning got eaten by the lunchtime which got eaten by the afternoon.

That's just nonsense. Your state of mind, presently, experiences the flow of time. To say it doesn't is to live in illusion. Does that mean there isn't a state of no-time? No. But you can never get-there by wishing away time.

There is no flow of time. Time is experienced when it's necessary. This time tomorrow, it will be the same time. That's a reference point, not a flow.