Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 11:50:05 GMT -5
There's no wrong way to pursue these gopal, but the end of the questioning isn't expressible in the form of a theory. In my experience there was a mind spin that quiet contemplation sort of collapsed, and what I mean by contemplation isn't thinking about the intellectual version of the existential questions. The thinking can reveal the limits of the process of thinking by the contradictions encountered. I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you?
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jun 27, 2015 12:39:17 GMT -5
There's no wrong way to pursue these gopal, but the end of the questioning isn't expressible in the form of a theory. In my experience there was a mind spin that quiet contemplation sort of collapsed, and what I mean by contemplation isn't thinking about the intellectual version of the existential questions. The thinking can reveal the limits of the process of thinking by the contradictions encountered. I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you? I wouldn't say ATA-T is a problem unless thought makes it into a problem. So we could say the problem with ATA-T is ATA+T What problems are you aware of gopal?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 27, 2015 12:46:44 GMT -5
I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you? I wouldn't say ATA-T is a problem unless thought makes it into a problem. So we could say the problem with ATA-T is ATA+T What problems are you aware of gopal? Not intending to answer for Gopal, but feeling like there's value in this question.. the problem i experience is the willingness to let an obscure acronym refer to an ill-defined process, rather than openly explore that process, treating the acronym as if people share the same understanding of it..
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jun 27, 2015 12:58:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't say ATA-T is a problem unless thought makes it into a problem. So we could say the problem with ATA-T is ATA+T What problems are you aware of gopal? Not intending to answer for Gopal, but feeling like there's value in this question.. the problem i experience is the willingness to let an obscure acronym refer to an ill-defined process, rather than openly explore that process, treating the acronym as if people share the same understanding of it.. I agree it is to be explored and will be an individual affair. For me it's useful to notice the difference between attending - T and attending + T. It can also be useful to consciusly allow thought to participate as loudly as it wants to and then notice the difference in its absence. When ATA-T feels like a "command" you can be sure tought is what's driving it. Becoming aware of the command, allowing it to be, might make room for silence to be noticed. To me, the silence might feel threatening. Asking where the threat is will then reveal more thought. Exploration, indeed.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 27, 2015 13:14:23 GMT -5
Not intending to answer for Gopal, but feeling like there's value in this question.. the problem i experience is the willingness to let an obscure acronym refer to an ill-defined process, rather than openly explore that process, treating the acronym as if people share the same understanding of it.. I agree it is to be explored and will be an individual affair. For me it's useful to notice the difference between attending - T and attending + T. It can also be useful to consciusly allow thought to participate as loudly as it wants to and then notice the difference in its absence. When ATA-T feels like a "command" you can be sure tought is what's driving it. Becoming aware of the command, allowing it to be, might make room for silence to be noticed. To me, the silence might feel threatening. Asking where the threat is will then reveal more thought. Exploration, indeed. Kudos for your willingness to explore.. it resonates that you use the absence of mind-noise to notice the silence that remains.. As pedantic as it might seem, the admonishment 'attending' the actual leaves me wondering what that experiencer's understanding of 'attending' is..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 14:21:23 GMT -5
I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you? I wouldn't say ATA-T is a problem unless thought makes it into a problem. So we could say the problem with ATA-T is ATA+T What problems are you aware of gopal? When mind suggest you to do something, it absolutely knows where to break it, so if you use the way Tolle suggest you to do, then at one point of time mind exactly knows how to pull you back to normal state and then back to ATA-T. If you do in the way zendancer suggest you to do to realize the seer, then the peace which has been created at the time of ATA-T can't stand without it's opposite, so irritation would be other side of this peace, peace/irritation roller coaster would be started.
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Post by laughter on Jun 27, 2015 15:37:52 GMT -5
There's no wrong way to pursue these gopal, but the end of the questioning isn't expressible in the form of a theory. In my experience there was a mind spin that quiet contemplation sort of collapsed, and what I mean by contemplation isn't thinking about the intellectual version of the existential questions. The thinking can reveal the limits of the process of thinking by the contradictions encountered. I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you? Sure, generally speaking, a meditation practice can be a split-mind exercise and can even lead to a sort of self-mastery that I've taken to calling "evil witnessing". Peeps like that because they benefit from it. After all, what's not to like about nonreactive calm? In my opinion, which might sound paradoxical, the solution is a greater intensity of stillness.
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Post by laughter on Jun 27, 2015 15:40:39 GMT -5
Not intending to answer for Gopal, but feeling like there's value in this question.. the problem i experience is the willingness to let an obscure acronym refer to an ill-defined process, rather than openly explore that process, treating the acronym as if people share the same understanding of it.. I agree it is to be explored and will be an individual affair. For me it's useful to notice the difference between attending - T and attending + T. It can also be useful to consciusly allow thought to participate as loudly as it wants to and then notice the difference in its absence. When ATA-T feels like a "command" you can be sure tought is what's driving it. Becoming aware of the command, allowing it to be, might make room for silence to be noticed. To me, the silence might feel threatening. Asking where the threat is will then reveal more thought. Exploration, indeed. Very well said. Enjoyed reading that, thanks.
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Post by laughter on Jun 27, 2015 15:42:46 GMT -5
I agree it is to be explored and will be an individual affair. For me it's useful to notice the difference between attending - T and attending + T. It can also be useful to consciusly allow thought to participate as loudly as it wants to and then notice the difference in its absence. When ATA-T feels like a "command" you can be sure tought is what's driving it. Becoming aware of the command, allowing it to be, might make room for silence to be noticed. To me, the silence might feel threatening. Asking where the threat is will then reveal more thought. Exploration, indeed. Kudos for your willingness to explore.. it resonates that you use the absence of mind-noise to notice the silence that remains.. As pedantic as it might seem, the admonishment 'attending' the actual leaves me wondering what that experiencer's understanding of 'attending' is.. Whatever it is, it's not attending the meaning, or even "the experiencer's understanding" of the word attending.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 27, 2015 18:37:33 GMT -5
Kudos for your willingness to explore.. it resonates that you use the absence of mind-noise to notice the silence that remains.. As pedantic as it might seem, the admonishment 'attending' the actual leaves me wondering what that experiencer's understanding of 'attending' is.. Whatever it is, it's not attending the meaning, or even "the experiencer's understanding" of the word attending. Oh, are you a psychic too?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 18:44:59 GMT -5
Whatever it is, it's not attending the meaning, or even "the experiencer's understanding" of the word attending. Oh, are you a psychic too?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 27, 2015 23:34:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't say ATA-T is a problem unless thought makes it into a problem. So we could say the problem with ATA-T is ATA+T What problems are you aware of gopal? Not intending to answer for Gopal, but feeling like there's value in this question.. the problem i experience is the willingness to let an obscure acronym refer to an ill-defined process, rather than openly explore that process, treating the acronym as if people share the same understanding of it.. ATA-T is what other people might call "looking with a still mind" or "looking without engaging mind," or "looking without conceptual knowing," or "looking in silence," or "being still and aware." As I've noted before, mindfulness is the (primarily Vipassana) practice of looking at everything, including thoughts. Mindfulness is sort of standing back and being an observer of everything. ATA-T is looking at everything OTHER THAN thoughts. Rather than standing back, metaphorically, and being an observer, when pursuing ATA-T, all separation disappears, and the observer eventually ceases to be part of the process. If pursued diligently, ATA-T leads to sustained silent awareness and an absence of self-referentialty.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 0:07:50 GMT -5
I am absolutely aware of the limitation of the thinking process, but at the same way I am absolutely aware of the problem of ATA-T as well, do you? Sure, generally speaking, a meditation practice can be a split-mind exercise and can even lead to a sort of self-mastery that I've taken to calling "evil witnessing". Peeps like that because they benefit from it. After all, what's not to like about nonreactive calm? In my opinion, which might sound paradoxical, the solution is a greater intensity of stillness. Can you rephrase the bolder line question thereby I could understand?
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Post by laughter on Jun 28, 2015 0:24:38 GMT -5
Whatever it is, it's not attending the meaning, or even "the experiencer's understanding" of the word attending. Oh, are you a psychic too? No need. ATA isn't about an "experiencer's understanding", in terms of experience as other than the experiencer. To dissect the words in the prescription is to ignore it. Use the knife for the steak, let the chef keep all his menus intact.
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Post by laughter on Jun 28, 2015 0:30:18 GMT -5
Sure, generally speaking, a meditation practice can be a split-mind exercise and can even lead to a sort of self-mastery that I've taken to calling "evil witnessing". Peeps like that because they benefit from it. After all, what's not to like about nonreactive calm? In my opinion, which might sound paradoxical, the solution is a greater intensity of stillness. Can you rephrase the bolder line question thereby I could understand? A person who thinks themselves to be meditating can do it for one of any number of reasons. It seems common that people become interested as a means to de-stress. Other's might come to value the ability to perform in high-pressure situations where other people are making unreasonable demands. Meditation can have benefits to a person their entire lives without them realizing that it wasn't them that was doing it all along ... that there never was any effort involved after all. btw: writing code can be a really deep positive samadhi. oh yeah.
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