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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2015 16:52:34 GMT -5
Well, I've had a particular recurring experience -- more like a specific thought -- that is directly applicable to this question. I've had it corroborated in various ways over the years by a common description of the experience by others, and in some cases, agreement as to a counter-conclusion, which takes the form of a pointer. Interested? Are you familiar at all with kiki over on the Tolle forum? Sure, I'm interested. I'm not familiar with kiki and not a regular visitor of the Tolle forum, although I stumbled by it yesterday, actually. In following Tolle's prescription to attend the space between thoughts an objection can arise: "that's boring. that?? nah, that can't be what he's talking about". In witnessing thoughts and feelings, how active the mind is can go in one of three ways: the mind can fire-up and jump around, it can clench and seize up, or it can sort of trail off into a sublime silence. The key factor here is interest. As each thought and feeling arises it's possible to be fully present with it but not energize it. To just let it be. In this orientation, as the thought or feeling comes into focus, without the energy of your interest, it will just dissolve. It will just sort of sail on through the mind like a high cloud on a clear day. This objection might be different for you, but perhaps you can see some sort of similarity here. It is in that silent, subtle, and quite unremarkable space that you can literally find yourself. I'd highly recommend reading kiki's stuff. What ZD wrote about the sense of I coming and going during the day is a very similar pointer, but one that's particularly applicable to when you're active, to when you're engaged and interested and doing things.
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jun 25, 2015 16:59:08 GMT -5
Jazz: The only thing preventing a direct apprehension of what's going on, and also what YOU are, is thought. If you will shift attention away from thoughts to what the body can see, hear, feel, etc, the truth will sooner or later become obvious as thought structures fall away and the intellect becomes silent. Thinking that "you" can do something to realize YOU is like thinking that "I" can get rid of "I." The obstacle to SR is the sense of there being a "me." During each day there are many times when "you" disappear; the body gets involved in some activity which absorbs attention, and self-reflection ceases. The same thing can happen during meditation. If you want to understand, simply look at the world nonconceptually, and remain silent. Hi ZD. ATA has been and continues to be a "practice", as has meditation, resting as awareness and selfinquiry. The intellect has become more silent and the sense of "me" less pronounced. I've noticed people on here writing about ATA-T, can you explain more about that?
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jun 25, 2015 17:10:59 GMT -5
Sure, I'm interested. I'm not familiar with kiki and not a regular visitor of the Tolle forum, although I stumbled by it yesterday, actually. In following Tolle's prescription to attend the space between thoughts an objection can arise: "that's boring. that?? nah, that can't be what he's talking about". In witnessing thoughts and feelings, how active the mind is can go in one of three ways: the mind can fire-up and jump around, it can clench and seize up, or it can sort of trail off into a sublime silence. The key factor here is interest. As each thought and feeling arises it's possible to be fully present with it but not energize it. To just let it be. In this orientation, as the thought or feeling comes into focus, without the energy of your interest, it will just dissolve. It will just sort of sail on through the mind like a high cloud on a clear day. This objection might be different for you, but perhaps you can see some sort of similarity here. It is in that silent, subtle, and quite unremarkable space that you can literally find yourself. I'd highly recommend reading kiki's stuff. What ZD wrote about the sense of I coming and going during the day is a very similar pointer, but one that's particularly applicable to when you're active, to when you're engaged and interested and doing things. Thanks for that! My main practice these days is Scott Kiloby's Living Inquiries which is a pretty powerful method to become aware of how words, pictures and energies are glued together. That's basically all that's going on. And it's a tough old bastard, as you say
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2015 17:15:08 GMT -5
In following Tolle's prescription to attend the space between thoughts an objection can arise: "that's boring. that?? nah, that can't be what he's talking about". In witnessing thoughts and feelings, how active the mind is can go in one of three ways: the mind can fire-up and jump around, it can clench and seize up, or it can sort of trail off into a sublime silence. The key factor here is interest. As each thought and feeling arises it's possible to be fully present with it but not energize it. To just let it be. In this orientation, as the thought or feeling comes into focus, without the energy of your interest, it will just dissolve. It will just sort of sail on through the mind like a high cloud on a clear day. This objection might be different for you, but perhaps you can see some sort of similarity here. It is in that silent, subtle, and quite unremarkable space that you can literally find yourself. I'd highly recommend reading kiki's stuff. What ZD wrote about the sense of I coming and going during the day is a very similar pointer, but one that's particularly applicable to when you're active, to when you're engaged and interested and doing things. Thanks for that! My main practice these days is Scott Kiloby's Living Inquiries which is a pretty powerful method to become aware of how words, pictures and energies are glued together. That's basically all that's going on. And it's a tough old bastard, as you say My pleasure dude. SK sounds interesting maybe I'll check him out.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 25, 2015 19:02:34 GMT -5
Jazz: The only thing preventing a direct apprehension of what's going on, and also what YOU are, is thought. If you will shift attention away from thoughts to what the body can see, hear, feel, etc, the truth will sooner or later become obvious as thought structures fall away and the intellect becomes silent. Thinking that "you" can do something to realize YOU is like thinking that "I" can get rid of "I." The obstacle to SR is the sense of there being a "me." During each day there are many times when "you" disappear; the body gets involved in some activity which absorbs attention, and self-reflection ceases. The same thing can happen during meditation. If you want to understand, simply look at the world nonconceptually, and remain silent. Hi ZD. ATA has been and continues to be a "practice", as has meditation, resting as awareness and selfinquiry. The intellect has become more silent and the sense of "me" less pronounced. I've noticed people on here writing about ATA-T, can you explain more about that? Sure. The idea is to consciously do what you Unconsciously and naturally did as a little child---interact with the world through direct sensory perception (look, listen, feel, taste, smell). Look at the world without naming anything, interpreting anything, or thinking ABOUT anything. Just look in mental silence at "what is." This is what we can call "non-conceptual awareness," or "attending the actual MINUS thought." If you keep shifting attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc, the intellect will become increasingly silent. As the intellect becomes silent, insights and realizations will automatically and sporadically occur. It is like letting muddy water stand still until the sediment settles, and the water becomes clear. When the water is muddy, we remain lost in a tangle of thoughts, and most of those thoughts are self-referential. When the water becomes sufficiently still, various realizations will occur, and it will sooner or later become obvious that personal selfhood is a thought structure and a story with no basis in reality (a figment of imagination). THAT which sees thoughts is NOT a person. Look in silence until the real see-er of thoughts is realized. When the real see-er is realized, you will know what you are, and you will then know true freedom. There will be absolutely no doubt.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 0:58:48 GMT -5
Hi ZD. ATA has been and continues to be a "practice", as has meditation, resting as awareness and selfinquiry. The intellect has become more silent and the sense of "me" less pronounced. I've noticed people on here writing about ATA-T, can you explain more about that? Sure. The idea is to consciously do what you Unconsciously and naturally did as a little child---interact with the world through direct sensory perception (look, listen, feel, taste, smell). Look at the world without naming anything, interpreting anything, or thinking ABOUT anything. Just look in mental silence at "what is." This is what we can call "non-conceptual awareness," or "attending the actual MINUS thought." If you keep shifting attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc, the intellect will become increasingly silent. As the intellect becomes silent, insights and realizations will automatically and sporadically occur. It is like letting muddy water stand still until the sediment settles, and the water becomes clear. When the water is muddy, we remain lost in a tangle of thoughts, and most of those thoughts are self-referential. When the water becomes sufficiently still, various realizations will occur, and it will sooner or later become obvious that personal selfhood is a thought structure and a story with no basis in reality (a figment of imagination). THAT which sees thoughts is NOT a person. Look in silence until the real see-er of thoughts is realized. When the real see-er is realized, you will know what you are, and you will then know true freedom. There will be absolutely no doubt. Isn't this action of moving away from thought strengthen your ego? Are you still performing these kind of action in your life for any other realization?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 26, 2015 5:27:50 GMT -5
Sure. The idea is to consciously do what you Unconsciously and naturally did as a little child---interact with the world through direct sensory perception (look, listen, feel, taste, smell). Look at the world without naming anything, interpreting anything, or thinking ABOUT anything. Just look in mental silence at "what is." This is what we can call "non-conceptual awareness," or "attending the actual MINUS thought." If you keep shifting attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc, the intellect will become increasingly silent. As the intellect becomes silent, insights and realizations will automatically and sporadically occur. It is like letting muddy water stand still until the sediment settles, and the water becomes clear. When the water is muddy, we remain lost in a tangle of thoughts, and most of those thoughts are self-referential. When the water becomes sufficiently still, various realizations will occur, and it will sooner or later become obvious that personal selfhood is a thought structure and a story with no basis in reality (a figment of imagination). THAT which sees thoughts is NOT a person. Look in silence until the real see-er of thoughts is realized. When the real see-er is realized, you will know what you are, and you will then know true freedom. There will be absolutely no doubt. Isn't this action of moving away from thought strengthen your ego? Are you still performing these kind of action in your life for any other realization? No.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 5:39:21 GMT -5
Isn't this action of moving away from thought strengthen your ego? Are you still performing these kind of action in your life for any other realization? No. This no for the first question or second question? You are not performing this ATA-T anymore in your life?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 26, 2015 6:21:36 GMT -5
This no for the first question or second question? You are not performing this ATA-T anymore in your life? No and no. I still do ATA-T, but not for any purpose or to acquire any kind of realization. Little children do ATA-T all the time; it is their default mode for interacting with the world. They don't live in their heads. Little children don't spend their time reflecting or dividing the world conceptually.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 6:38:33 GMT -5
This no for the first question or second question? You are not performing this ATA-T anymore in your life? No and no. I still do ATA-T, but not for any purpose or to acquire any kind of realization. Little children do ATA-T all the time; it is their default mode for interacting with the world. They don't live in their heads. Little children don't spend their time reflecting or dividing the world conceptually. These kind of ATA-T everybody is doing in their life, even I am doing it when I am writing program here,but how does that differ from yours?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 26, 2015 7:01:58 GMT -5
No and no. I still do ATA-T, but not for any purpose or to acquire any kind of realization. Little children do ATA-T all the time; it is their default mode for interacting with the world. They don't live in their heads. Little children don't spend their time reflecting or dividing the world conceptually. These kind of ATA-T everybody is doing in their life, even I am doing it when I am writing program here,but how does that differ from yours? To the degree that you are not reflecting ABOUT the world, it does not differ. Do you think that you are a person? Do you have any unanswered existential questions? Do you perceive any separation anywhere? Do you think that any divisions of any kind (inner, outer, other, etc) exist other than in imagination? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, then you are not yet free.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 7:11:15 GMT -5
These kind of ATA-T everybody is doing in their life, even I am doing it when I am writing program here,but how does that differ from yours? To the degree that you are not reflecting ABOUT the world, it does not differ. Do you think that you are a person? Do you have any unanswered existential questions? Do you perceive any separation anywhere? Do you think that any divisions of any kind (inner, outer, other, etc) exist other than in imagination? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, then you are not yet free. No, I am consciousness. Yes. No No. I am saying 'yes' to the second question,but how does you think it affects my freedom? Or do you think seeking towards anything affects the freedom?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 26, 2015 7:32:47 GMT -5
To the degree that you are not reflecting ABOUT the world, it does not differ. Do you think that you are a person? Do you have any unanswered existential questions? Do you perceive any separation anywhere? Do you think that any divisions of any kind (inner, outer, other, etc) exist other than in imagination? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, then you are not yet free. No, I am consciousness. Yes. No No. I am saying 'yes' to the second question,but how does you think it affects my freedom? Or do you think seeking towards anything affects the freedom? If you're free, and you know you're free, then there's no problem. Usually, seeking indicates that everything is not yet settled.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 7:55:41 GMT -5
No, I am consciousness. Yes. No No. I am saying 'yes' to the second question,but how does you think it affects my freedom? Or do you think seeking towards anything affects the freedom? If you're free, and you know you're free, then there's no problem. Usually, seeking indicates that everything is not yet settled. Okay,clear.
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Post by laughter on Jun 27, 2015 11:13:45 GMT -5
Do you have any unanswered existential questions? Yes. There's no wrong way to pursue these gopal, but the end of the questioning isn't expressible in the form of a theory. In my experience there was a mind spin that quiet contemplation sort of collapsed, and what I mean by contemplation isn't thinking about the intellectual version of the existential questions. The thinking can reveal the limits of the process of thinking by the contradictions encountered.
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