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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 14:17:55 GMT -5
Silver: 99% of my questions were existential, but along the way one or two personal life situations became problematic. Because I'm primarily a thinker rather than a feeler, the questions were always highly specific. In one situation that seemed to seriously challenge the core of my being it was simply, "Faced with this serious issue, what should I do?" The answer that arose after a period of intense contemplation was, "I must be true to what I am regardless of the consequences." The body knew the answer to the question, but a realization had to occur in order for the mind to understand and become informed that there was no real choice. The quandary had been a mind-quandary, only. Once the truth was seen I knew what to do. I had no way of knowing what would happen as a result of attaining clarity concerning the situation, but it didn't really matter. I was so certain of what I had to do that nothing could have made me question my resolution. Everyone has the capability of discovering the truth concerning any existential (or personal) question that might arise, but to do so requires that the mind must learn what the body already knows. Another way of putting this is that the mind and body must become psychologically unified. Meditation/contemplation is a means of attaining that kind of unity and overcoming split-mind thinking. Most people live in their heads, and all of their problems are generated by thoughts. If there are no thoughts, there are no problems. When there are no thoughts, there is only the perfect unfolding of "what is." Tzu's "still mind" admonition is pointing to the same thing. Thanks zd. 99% of that makes sense. The phrase I hear about split mind has always been a challenge for me to get, although it sure sounds like a simple concept. I've even seen it explained, but I still went 'huh?' Up to this point, I've always been stand-offish because I don't quite know what people are trying to say when they use it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2015 14:18:33 GMT -5
Oh! Which part is yes? Enigma thinks he needs to know. He might be able to explain it to both of us. it might have been a stretch ...but yes, I figger I know what she meant.. and no, neither she or I made a subsequent response on the forum
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2015 14:24:18 GMT -5
yes, and no Oh! Which part is yes? Enigma thinks he needs to know. it was a poetic interpretation of silver-ese
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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 14:43:10 GMT -5
This is how it works right... I don't have a clue what WIBIGO means, so when it's said, no model or meaning occurs to my mind. That's the thing, innit. You mean the acronym?
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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 14:48:11 GMT -5
People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind. Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) Intellectual answers, mind answers all lead to more questions, yes. There is a different type of answer that is inherently subjective in nature, and that only involves mind indirectly, that doesn't lead to more questions. You know, epistime/gnosis? Hey, ever hear of the vagus nerve?
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 14:51:49 GMT -5
WIBIGO is pointing to the same thing as "what is," but it's not a thing. ha ha
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 17:18:03 GMT -5
Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD. I thought realization meant a falling away/absence, and not a presence? You now seem to be saying that you have 'realized' certain answers that satisfied your appetite...? An answer to an existential question is a presence, not an absence. If the question goes away because a pat 'answer' was arrived at, that's adding more to your spiritual knapsack, not lightening your load. Yes, ultimately the answer is that the question is misconceived. This is different from a conceptual answer, and also different from losing the need to find an answer while the question remains.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 17:34:49 GMT -5
Silver: 99% of my questions were existential, but along the way one or two personal life situations became problematic. Because I'm primarily a thinker rather than a feeler, the questions were always highly specific. In one situation that seemed to seriously challenge the core of my being it was simply, "Faced with this serious issue, what should I do?" The answer that arose after a period of intense contemplation was, "I must be true to what I am regardless of the consequences." The body knew the answer to the question, but a realization had to occur in order for the mind to understand and become informed that there was no real choice. The quandary had been a mind-quandary, only. Once the truth was seen I knew what to do. I had no way of knowing what would happen as a result of attaining clarity concerning the situation, but it didn't really matter. I was so certain of what I had to do that nothing could have made me question my resolution. Everyone has the capability of discovering the truth concerning any existential (or personal) question that might arise, but to do so requires that the mind must learn what the body already knows. Another way of putting this is that the mind and body must become psychologically unified. Meditation/contemplation is a means of attaining that kind of unity and overcoming split-mind thinking. Most people live in their heads, and all of their problems are generated by thoughts. If there are no thoughts, there are no problems. When there are no thoughts, there is only the perfect unfolding of "what is." Tzu's "still mind" admonition is pointing to the same thing. Thanks zd. 99% of that makes sense. The phrase I hear about split mind has always been a challenge for me to get, although it sure sounds like a simple concept. I've even seen it explained, but I still went 'huh?' Up to this point, I've always been stand-offish because I don't quite know what people are trying to say when they use it. A simple example of a split mind is wanting to eat a lot and also wanting to lose weight, and experiencing that conflict. The conflict is treated as though there are two of you wanting different things (the split) and so a struggle ensues. And yet there are not two, and so the struggle is only with oneself, which seems rather foolish. There can be no winner or loser, or even an end to the battle. The fact is, you want one option more than you want the other, or some sort of balance between the two, and that's clearly what you should do, which doesn't require a struggle. The battle is always a mind game, usually to allay guilt and to continue the quest for the impossible. (To lose weight while eating whatever you want) Billions are made every year in the diet industry by capitalizing on that self delusion. The diet issue is not vitally important here, but the function of self delusion and split mind is, as it is applied everywhere in our lives, including what we call habits.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 17:36:42 GMT -5
He might be able to explain it to both of us. it might have been a stretch ...but yes, I figger I know what she meant.. and no, neither she or I made a subsequent response on the forum Would you be willing to explain it to her, since she doesn't seem to know?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 17, 2015 17:42:55 GMT -5
It's not weird, it's poetry, silver is a poet. Poets write stuff they don't understand all the time, it's practically a "job" description. I'd be willing to guess that you don't read much poetry. You need but look at silver's avatars and know she's an artist. You're a head person, silver is a heart person, you don't speak the same language. You really do need to relax a little E, chill out. Automagically is a great word. ...........you know, like meatphysics......... .........you don't have to understand it.......you feel it in your bones.....automagically is probably like.....Harry Pottering......... ..........it was like the equanimity was imagined, not real........automagically....Harry Pottering.....6 of 1....1/2 dozen of the other.......what silver said makes perfect sense....... You don't know what you're talking about. Satsang Poetry
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Post by earnest on Jan 17, 2015 17:56:35 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) This is excellent! There are no longer any conscious expectations, desires, or questions, and one simply deals with what is happening in the present moment and watches. This is all one can do until a particular structure of thought (self-referentiality) collapses. There is stuff happening Un-consciously, but it need not be a subject of thought. Stay present and watch. Whenever it is realized that conceptual reflectivity (about existential issues) is occurring, simply shift attention back to what is happening--to direct sensory perception. This body/mind got to exactly the same point. It realized that nothing more could be done, so it relaxed and took the attitude of, "Permanent unity-consciousness will occur in this lifetime or in another lifetime, and it no longer matters how long it takes; whatever is happening NOW is going to be the only focus of attention." The body/mind still went on periodic silent ATA-MT hikes and retreats (during which attentiveness to "what is" becomes intensified and prolonged), and one day several months later a realization occurred that ended the search for truth and resulted in freedom. Just watch, until the imaginary watcher vanishes and the REAL watcher is all that remains. I've been getting more stirred up (physically feeling tired and nauseous - more than normal - argumentative, despondent, brain fog, busy mind) which can get me all resistant and doubtful. I kind of know the answer but I'm going to ask the question anyway - just go back to immediacy of whats happening regardless of thoughts and feelings about what's happening?
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 18:04:59 GMT -5
This is excellent! There are no longer any conscious expectations, desires, or questions, and one simply deals with what is happening in the present moment and watches. This is all one can do until a particular structure of thought (self-referentiality) collapses. There is stuff happening Un-consciously, but it need not be a subject of thought. Stay present and watch. Whenever it is realized that conceptual reflectivity (about existential issues) is occurring, simply shift attention back to what is happening--to direct sensory perception. This body/mind got to exactly the same point. It realized that nothing more could be done, so it relaxed and took the attitude of, "Permanent unity-consciousness will occur in this lifetime or in another lifetime, and it no longer matters how long it takes; whatever is happening NOW is going to be the only focus of attention." The body/mind still went on periodic silent ATA-MT hikes and retreats (during which attentiveness to "what is" becomes intensified and prolonged), and one day several months later a realization occurred that ended the search for truth and resulted in freedom. Just watch, until the imaginary watcher vanishes and the REAL watcher is all that remains. I've been getting more stirred up (physically feeling tired and nauseous - more than normal - argumentative, despondent, brain fog, busy mind) which can get me all resistant and doubtful. I kind of know the answer but I'm going to ask the question anyway - just go back to immediacy of whats happening regardless of thoughts and feelings about what's happening? Do you mean when you sign on here? or just in general in your life? If that isn't working for you, and if you haven't done this before (or even if you have), take a look into Buddha's life and study that for a while. Just a mild suggestion.
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 18:08:55 GMT -5
Thanks zd. 99% of that makes sense. The phrase I hear about split mind has always been a challenge for me to get, although it sure sounds like a simple concept. I've even seen it explained, but I still went 'huh?' Up to this point, I've always been stand-offish because I don't quite know what people are trying to say when they use it. A simple example of a split mind is wanting to eat a lot and also wanting to lose weight, and experiencing that conflict. The conflict is treated as though there are two of you wanting different things (the split) and so a struggle ensues. And yet there are not two, and so the struggle is only with oneself, which seems rather foolish. There can be no winner or loser, or even an end to the battle. The fact is, you want one option more than you want the other, or some sort of balance between the two, and that's clearly what you should do, which doesn't require a struggle. The battle is always a mind game, usually to allay guilt and to continue the quest for the impossible. (To lose weight while eating whatever you want) Billions are made every year in the diet industry by capitalizing on that self delusion. The diet issue is not vitally important here, but the function of self delusion and split mind is, as it is applied everywhere in our lives, including what we call habits. Any other simple example would've been better - it doesn't even relate to what you've previously posted about. You are thusly vastly oversimplifying the issue of weight problems. If it were a simple matter of self delusion, I wouldn't say anything, but it's far from just self delusion. Try another example, because I still don't understand it - I want to know something truly specific - something that you've used the term split mind in reference to anything you've previously used it for here.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 18:10:40 GMT -5
Face it, I'm an enigma.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 18:16:52 GMT -5
A simple example of a split mind is wanting to eat a lot and also wanting to lose weight, and experiencing that conflict. The conflict is treated as though there are two of you wanting different things (the split) and so a struggle ensues. And yet there are not two, and so the struggle is only with oneself, which seems rather foolish. There can be no winner or loser, or even an end to the battle. The fact is, you want one option more than you want the other, or some sort of balance between the two, and that's clearly what you should do, which doesn't require a struggle. The battle is always a mind game, usually to allay guilt and to continue the quest for the impossible. (To lose weight while eating whatever you want) Billions are made every year in the diet industry by capitalizing on that self delusion. The diet issue is not vitally important here, but the function of self delusion and split mind is, as it is applied everywhere in our lives, including what we call habits. Any other simple example would've been better - it doesn't even relate to what you've previously posted about. You are thusly vastly oversimplifying the issue of weight problems. If it were a simple matter of self delusion, I wouldn't say anything, but it's far from just self delusion. Try another example, because I still don't understand it - I want to know something truly specific - something that you've used the term split mind in reference to anything you've previously used it for here. If you don't understand that simple example, you won't understand any other for the same reason. You think the dieting issue is more complicated, so you're not seeing the self delusion.
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