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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 12:20:24 GMT -5
Meditation is what you make of it. Would you like to know what I make of it? Of coures :-D.
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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 12:22:42 GMT -5
Yes, it's a good point. Meditation is often an attempt to still the mind, which can lead to spontaneous insights and woo woo experiences, but the lack of insights and experiences isn't the real problem. Mind is the real problem, and it needs to be involved in the solution. What we usually mean by contemplation is a kind of meditation that involves mind in a more quiet state, and this not only allows for a focus of attention that can lead to very specific realizations that relate to that focus, but it also allows mind to be informed, as you say, about what this means. This is critical if the conditioning is to undergo any changes. If mind is not ultimately informed by the realization, the realization is lost the moment it is no longer seen, because realization is non-conceptual and timeless. (occurring only in the moment that it is seen, and leaving no tracks in the mind in the form of mental clarity or memories) As such, the realization has no effect on the conditioning and mind continues to perform just as it did before the realization. This is why those realizations in a 'no-mind' state often take the form of an experience, which mind then conceptualizes and grasps and tries to repeat, bypassing the process of informing the mind. This is the potential value of Satsang, which may include a mind quieting meditation perhaps, but is itself an opportunity for contemplation. In our seagull satsang yesterday, Marie mentioned how often she gets clarity in our satsangs but then she gets back to the 'real world' and mind is too involved in what's going on. I told her in satsang she steps back into the witnessing mode and attendes to what's being discussed, and this quiets the mind and expands her awareness enough to gain these insights, and this is not meant to be a temporary state reserved for these discussions but rather a permanent mode of being. One does not need to leave the witnessing position as one IS the witness (or the witnessing, if you like). The doing that needs to be done does not generally require that you step into a thinking mode. You can see what you need to see from that witnessing position and the mind and body will take care of the rest. The only reason there are some exceptions to this is because we have designed a society based on the thinker, and sometimes it's necessary to hyperactivate the mind in order to conform. It is not a healthy way to function and is not necessary, for example, on this forum. So what you are saying is, meditation has it's place, but one should bring mind to the round satsang table?
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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 12:25:59 GMT -5
The best course is to take all those excellent questions you wrote in parentheses regarding your meditative altered state, and investigate if and how those questions equally apply to your so-called 'sober' or 'non-meditative' state. The goal isn't to artificially dichotomize meditative states against normal states, the goal isn't to blindly insist that only the meditative state is true or real and that the normal state is false or unreal, to the contrary the goal is to investigate the common threads between both states.. as understanding becomes more integrated, then when transitioning from one state to another the lucidity of the experience remains more intact, more unbroken, and conclusions derived in one state increasingly pertain to all states.. When disparate subjective viewpoints are each experienced and considered in isolation, sheltered from the others, then they each respectively appear objective in their own right during the thick of their respective occurrences.. but when the walls between the viewpoints can be taken down then it forces truth to rise to the surface.. after all subjectivity and objectivity are two sides of the same coin.. Bad Transcix wants to confuse little japhy even more?!
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2014 13:16:44 GMT -5
Meditation is what you make of it. Would you like to know what I make of it? Of coures :-D. Meditation is an opening, a quieting and a stilling that either happens or it doesn't in either a time set aside and devoted to a practice or in any given instant of noticing. It's an integration of a sorts, an ongoing deconstruction project and a fire that for most of my life I never even knew was burning. In meditation, there is no purpose and no end. Nothing to gain, no applicable milestone of accomplishment, and most certainly, no effort to make. If I'm exerting myself -- other than physically, or perhaps, in intellectual flow -- it can't be meditation. A nice side effect seems to be greater self-honesty. Please don't be shy with any questions. Best of luck with your practice, and I wish you well sir.
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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 17:03:42 GMT -5
Meditation is an opening, a quieting and a stilling that either happens or it doesn't in either a time set aside and devoted to a practice or in any given instant of noticing. It's an integration of a sorts, an ongoing deconstruction project and a fire that for most of my life I never even knew was burning. In meditation, there is no purpose and no end. Nothing to gain, no applicable milestone of accomplishment, and most certainly, no effort to make. If I'm exerting myself -- other than physically, or perhaps, in intellectual flow -- it can't be meditation. A nice side effect seems to be greater self-honesty. Please don't be shy with any questions. Best of luck with your practice, and I wish you well sir. Your description sounds honest and good. There is a question on the opening part. Usually the advice I heard is, if it is noticed that thinking is happening, one should gently direct ones awareness back to the meditation object. I think with some thoughts I have been gentle and with others not so gentle. It is not always easy to differentiate between the two. Maybe it's time to welcome some more :-D. Do you have any experiencing regarding this? That there come phases when one has to readjust the balance between focus and letting go?
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Post by enigma on Dec 8, 2014 17:48:07 GMT -5
Yes, it's a good point. Meditation is often an attempt to still the mind, which can lead to spontaneous insights and woo woo experiences, but the lack of insights and experiences isn't the real problem. Mind is the real problem, and it needs to be involved in the solution. What we usually mean by contemplation is a kind of meditation that involves mind in a more quiet state, and this not only allows for a focus of attention that can lead to very specific realizations that relate to that focus, but it also allows mind to be informed, as you say, about what this means. This is critical if the conditioning is to undergo any changes. If mind is not ultimately informed by the realization, the realization is lost the moment it is no longer seen, because realization is non-conceptual and timeless. (occurring only in the moment that it is seen, and leaving no tracks in the mind in the form of mental clarity or memories) As such, the realization has no effect on the conditioning and mind continues to perform just as it did before the realization. This is why those realizations in a 'no-mind' state often take the form of an experience, which mind then conceptualizes and grasps and tries to repeat, bypassing the process of informing the mind. This is the potential value of Satsang, which may include a mind quieting meditation perhaps, but is itself an opportunity for contemplation. In our seagull satsang yesterday, Marie mentioned how often she gets clarity in our satsangs but then she gets back to the 'real world' and mind is too involved in what's going on. I told her in satsang she steps back into the witnessing mode and attendes to what's being discussed, and this quiets the mind and expands her awareness enough to gain these insights, and this is not meant to be a temporary state reserved for these discussions but rather a permanent mode of being. One does not need to leave the witnessing position as one IS the witness (or the witnessing, if you like). The doing that needs to be done does not generally require that you step into a thinking mode. You can see what you need to see from that witnessing position and the mind and body will take care of the rest. The only reason there are some exceptions to this is because we have designed a society based on the thinker, and sometimes it's necessary to hyperactivate the mind in order to conform. It is not a healthy way to function and is not necessary, for example, on this forum. So what you are saying is, meditation has it's place, but one should bring mind to the round satsang table? I was saying lots of things, but that wasn't really one of em, so much, really.
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2014 18:45:57 GMT -5
Meditation is an opening, a quieting and a stilling that either happens or it doesn't in either a time set aside and devoted to a practice or in any given instant of noticing. It's an integration of a sorts, an ongoing deconstruction project and a fire that for most of my life I never even knew was burning. In meditation, there is no purpose and no end. Nothing to gain, no applicable milestone of accomplishment, and most certainly, no effort to make. If I'm exerting myself -- other than physically, or perhaps, in intellectual flow -- it can't be meditation. A nice side effect seems to be greater self-honesty. Please don't be shy with any questions. Best of luck with your practice, and I wish you well sir. Your description sounds honest and good. There is a question on the opening part. Usually the advice I heard is, if it is noticed that thinking is happening, one should gently direct ones awareness back to the meditation object. I think with some thoughts I have been gentle and with others not so gentle. It is not always easy to differentiate between the two. Maybe it's time to welcome some more :-D. Do you have any experiencing regarding this? That there come phases when one has to readjust the balance between focus and letting go? Thanks for the kind words japhy. Yes, there've been times since I've started meditating consciously -- in the practice of watching thoughts -- that focusing on what specific particular interest is the source of a noisy mind that won't quiesce is where the meditating leads. I've also been in situations where no amount of focus would help. Sorting out the specifics of the interest to find what's at the root of the thoughts is a constriction and narrowing of attention. What I've found (as you might expect) is that once the interest is discovered, quiet comes with detachment, with re-opening, with that sort of self-forgiving that is, as you say, a letting go. A sailing through the mind of the interest that allows attention to shift back to attention itself. I've also found that if attention is shifted outward to and in the execution of an active task, that as long as the task can result in flow, the opening happens naturally. AKA, ATA. I've further found that getting stubborn about that shift can often seem to force the flow .. .. but of course that's not what's actually happening, it just seems that way superficially.
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Post by enigma on Dec 8, 2014 20:35:18 GMT -5
Your description sounds honest and good. There is a question on the opening part. Usually the advice I heard is, if it is noticed that thinking is happening, one should gently direct ones awareness back to the meditation object. I think with some thoughts I have been gentle and with others not so gentle. It is not always easy to differentiate between the two. Maybe it's time to welcome some more :-D. Do you have any experiencing regarding this? That there come phases when one has to readjust the balance between focus and letting go? Thanks for the kind words japhy. Yes, there've been times since I've started meditating consciously -- in the practice of watching thoughts -- that focusing on what specific particular interest is the source of a noisy mind that won't quiesce is where the meditating leads. I've also been in situations where no amount of focus would help. Sorting out the specifics of the interest to find what's at the root of the thoughts is a constriction and narrowing of attention. What I've found (as you might expect) is that once the interest is discovered, quiet comes with detachment, with re-opening, with that sort of self-forgiving that is, as you say, a letting go. A sailing through the mind of the interest that allows attention to shift back to attention itself. I've also found that if attention is shifted outward to and in the execution of an active task, that as long as the task can result in flow, the opening happens naturally. AKA, ATA. I've further found that getting stubborn about that shift can often seem to force the flow .. .. but of course that's not what's actually happening, it just seems that way superficially. Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away.
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Post by earnest on Dec 8, 2014 22:15:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words japhy. Yes, there've been times since I've started meditating consciously -- in the practice of watching thoughts -- that focusing on what specific particular interest is the source of a noisy mind that won't quiesce is where the meditating leads. I've also been in situations where no amount of focus would help. Sorting out the specifics of the interest to find what's at the root of the thoughts is a constriction and narrowing of attention. What I've found (as you might expect) is that once the interest is discovered, quiet comes with detachment, with re-opening, with that sort of self-forgiving that is, as you say, a letting go. A sailing through the mind of the interest that allows attention to shift back to attention itself. I've also found that if attention is shifted outward to and in the execution of an active task, that as long as the task can result in flow, the opening happens naturally. AKA, ATA. I've further found that getting stubborn about that shift can often seem to force the flow .. .. but of course that's not what's actually happening, it just seems that way superficially. Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. This seems to be my experience.. The quieter things get, the more anxiety and discomfort arises (not always but often enough). I know that trying to get away from it just feeds it, but the urge to scratch that itch is strong. At the times when surrender has happened the intensity has been the same, but its been completely fine, without any desire for it to be different.
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2014 0:12:55 GMT -5
Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. This seems to be my experience.. The quieter things get, the more anxiety and discomfort arises (not always but often enough). I know that trying to get away from it just feeds it, but the urge to scratch that itch is strong. At the times when surrender has happened the intensity has been the same, but its been completely fine, without any desire for it to be different. Not sure what that "surrender" really is for you in that case, but I only see one way out of that dilemma. What is happening in the mind/body is actually being witnessed by you. Since identification is still active, for a time there may be a sense of there being two of you, a bit like Tolle's initial observation that there was an 'I' that can't live with 'myself'. From that position, the anxiety will naturally subside. However, this is different from shifting attention away from the thoughts to sense perception. There's not a turning away from thought/feeling so much as a disidentification with it. It is more.....challenging, but it is the truth you are after and not another escape plan. It is the truth that you are the silent witness.
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2014 10:59:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words japhy. Yes, there've been times since I've started meditating consciously -- in the practice of watching thoughts -- that focusing on what specific particular interest is the source of a noisy mind that won't quiesce is where the meditating leads. I've also been in situations where no amount of focus would help. Sorting out the specifics of the interest to find what's at the root of the thoughts is a constriction and narrowing of attention. What I've found (as you might expect) is that once the interest is discovered, quiet comes with detachment, with re-opening, with that sort of self-forgiving that is, as you say, a letting go. A sailing through the mind of the interest that allows attention to shift back to attention itself. I've also found that if attention is shifted outward to and in the execution of an active task, that as long as the task can result in flow, the opening happens naturally. AKA, ATA. I've further found that getting stubborn about that shift can often seem to force the flow .. .. but of course that's not what's actually happening, it just seems that way superficially. Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. In so far that the quiescing is a split, yes, but in the opening there is a pliance, a welcoming, with noone waving a white flag.
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Post by steven on Dec 9, 2014 16:27:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words japhy. Yes, there've been times since I've started meditating consciously -- in the practice of watching thoughts -- that focusing on what specific particular interest is the source of a noisy mind that won't quiesce is where the meditating leads. I've also been in situations where no amount of focus would help. Sorting out the specifics of the interest to find what's at the root of the thoughts is a constriction and narrowing of attention. What I've found (as you might expect) is that once the interest is discovered, quiet comes with detachment, with re-opening, with that sort of self-forgiving that is, as you say, a letting go. A sailing through the mind of the interest that allows attention to shift back to attention itself. I've also found that if attention is shifted outward to and in the execution of an active task, that as long as the task can result in flow, the opening happens naturally. AKA, ATA. I've further found that getting stubborn about that shift can often seem to force the flow .. .. but of course that's not what's actually happening, it just seems that way superficially. Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. That's articulate, and well reasoned, but it also seems like an over generalization too. By way of over generalization, I would say that all the 'hustle bustle' is the result of desire and/or attachment, which in turn is the momentum of Karma. In a broader sense, it's the patterns of creation unfolding withen the established paradigm of this realm of experience, in a way that maintains a kind of stability of common experience for us all to relate to each other withen....And in still a broader sense, its us knowing thy self within a kind set range of maintained parameters, established by the aggregate momentum of our individual karmic patterns working as a whole.
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2014 17:19:59 GMT -5
Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. In so far that the quiescing is a split, yes, but in the opening there is a pliance, a welcoming, with noone waving a white flag. The scary bears question is, to what extent is ATA a potential avoidance?
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2014 17:23:50 GMT -5
In so far that the quiescing is a split, yes, but in the opening there is a pliance, a welcoming, with noone waving a white flag. The scary bears question is, to what extent is ATA a potential avoidance? To the extent that one is sensed as separate from the actual. Obviously there is some appearance of this sense or the event of noticing wouldn't happen. I'd describe this as a stubborn residual. Tangled knots of conditioning.
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2014 17:27:19 GMT -5
Okay, thought for the day: The incessant, rabid busyness of the world is a direct result of the need to escape the struggle and anxiety associated with one's own thoughts and feelings. One focuses on sensory stimulation and external events in order to suppress conscious awareness of one's deeper anxiety, about which one may know little or nothing. As the activity slows, as it does in meditation or boredom, the thoughts and feelings one is attempting to escape come floating spontaneously to the surface of conscious awareness, and this is what one is trying to avoid. This is, in essence, a crutch that we all learn to use to help us feel better, and it's one of the crutches that we ultimately must throw away. That's articulate, and well reasoned, but it also seems like an over generalization too. By way of over generalization, I would say that all the 'hustle bustle' is the result of desire and/or attachment, which in turn is the momentum of Karma. In a broader sense, it's the patterns of creation unfolding withen the established paradigm of this realm of experience, in a way that maintains a kind of stability of common experience for us all to relate to each other withen....And in still a broader sense, its us knowing thy self within a kind set range of maintained parameters, established by the aggregate momentum of our individual karmic patterns working as a whole. I don't really understand the last paragraph. Yes, I meant to speak generally, and can only relate to the American culture. The issue is, to what extent is there excessive busy-ness, and is this essentially an avoidance? To me, the answer is, to a great extent, and yes.
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