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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2014 17:31:12 GMT -5
The scary bears question is, to what extent is ATA a potential avoidance? To the extent that one is sensed as separate from the actual. Obviously there is some appearance of this sense or the event of noticing wouldn't happen. I'd describe this as a stubborn residual. Tangled knots of conditioning. Sure, if one is doing ATA, it is because there is identification with a separate self, and ATA is meant to correct that.
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2014 17:36:32 GMT -5
To the extent that one is sensed as separate from the actual. Obviously there is some appearance of this sense or the event of noticing wouldn't happen. I'd describe this as a stubborn residual. Tangled knots of conditioning. Sure, if one is doing ATA, it is because there is identification with a separate self, and ATA is meant to correct that. Meditation just ain't meditation if it ain't effortless. ATA is never not really just the Universe coming into alignment with itself. It might seem otherwise in the context of that identification. Outside of that identification, there's these scattered bits of rusty nails, broken glass and ancient dust-bunnies swirling in the corners and creases of the moldings of the mind ...
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2014 18:00:26 GMT -5
Sure, if one is doing ATA, it is because there is identification with a separate self, and ATA is meant to correct that. Meditation just ain't meditation if it ain't effortless. ATA is never not really just the Universe coming into alignment with itself. It might seem otherwise in the context of that identification. Outside of that identification, there's these scattered bits of rusty nails, broken glass and ancient dust-bunnies swirling in the corners and creases of the moldings of the mind ... I'm not seeing your point.
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2014 18:07:07 GMT -5
Meditation just ain't meditation if it ain't effortless. ATA is never not really just the Universe coming into alignment with itself. It might seem otherwise in the context of that identification. Outside of that identification, there's these scattered bits of rusty nails, broken glass and ancient dust-bunnies swirling in the corners and creases of the moldings of the mind ... I'm not seeing your point. There's no way to describe noticing without reference to a split, but noticing happens absent identification with a separate self.
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Post by enigma on Dec 11, 2014 2:23:28 GMT -5
I'm not seeing your point. There's no way to describe noticing without reference to a split, but noticing happens absent identification with a separate self. Oh....yeah....
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 11, 2014 6:28:28 GMT -5
I'm not seeing your point. There's no way to describe noticing without reference to a split, but noticing happens absent identification with a separate self. Have you noticed that different people notice the same experience differently?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 11, 2014 10:38:08 GMT -5
To the extent that one is sensed as separate from the actual. Obviously there is some appearance of this sense or the event of noticing wouldn't happen. I'd describe this as a stubborn residual. Tangled knots of conditioning. Sure, if one is doing ATA, it is because there is identification with a separate self, and ATA is meant to correct that. Just to add a bit of clarification: everyone does ATA-MT to some extent, whether they have distinguished that activity as non-conceptual or not, and whether or not they have even thought about direct perception as an activity distinct from thought. This is because everyone sees, hears, feels, etc. Small children spend almost all of their time doing ATA-MT. As they grow older, they spend more and more time learning about the world intellectually (making and then manipulating abstract distinctions) and reflecting about themselves as separate entities. In contrast to young children most adults spend a huge amount of time thinking ABOUT the world rather than directly perceiving the world, but they still see, hear, feel, etc. Adults who get interested in meditation, and adults who realize that they have gotten into the habit of thinking about the world rather than interacting with it directly, may begin to PURPOSELY practice ATA-MT. Zen meditators, for example, are taught to watch or feel the breath, and this is a form of ATA-MT. They continually shift attention away from thoughts to breath awareness. Other people, realizing or intuiting what's involved in meditative practices, may purposely shift attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc. This is the kind of ATA-MT that I generally refer to because it is informal and can be pursued anytime and anywhere. You don't have to sit on a mat for a prescribed period of time; you can pay attention to what's going on around you by looking, listening, feeling, etc, rather than thinking. When ATA of either the ATA-MT or ATA-T variety is being pursued by a meditator, it is usually because there is a sense that "I need to do this in order to penetrate illusions created by thought and conditioning, or to get enlightened, or to attain freedom from the mind, etc." After self-realization, however, ATA may continue to be pursued for no reason whatsoever, or because it is an established way of life, or because it is an enjoyable activity, or because it is seen as a doorway into further depths of Self exploration. In these cases it is simply the cosmos unfolding however it unfolds sans any belief in the idea of personal selfhood. Hakuin, for example, as a monk, had many cosmic consciousness experiences and many realizations over an extended period of time, but his master refused to recognize any of his attainments as significant. Two or three years after his master had died, Hakuin attained Self-realization (satori) and said, "Only after satori did I fully realize why my master had not sanctioned my prior understanding." After satori, however, Hakuin continued to do zazen (a form of ATA), and he attained further insights. In his autobiography Hakuin claimed that the deepest enlightenment experience of his entire life occurred long after satori. It was triggered one night by the sound of falling snow as he sat in zazen. Ramana, as another example, attained deep realization of the Self at an early age, but he continued to meditate and enter states of Samadhi for many years afterwards. Many other sages in many other non-dual traditions have also continued to meditate throughout the remainder of their lives despite being Self-realized. How the cosmos will manifest through the life of a particular body/mind is unpredictable.
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Post by laughter on Dec 11, 2014 10:55:24 GMT -5
There's no way to describe noticing without reference to a split, but noticing happens absent identification with a separate self. Have you noticed that different people notice the same experience differently? Have you ever noticed that you only need one hand to reach your ass?
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Post by earnest on Dec 11, 2014 17:01:43 GMT -5
This seems to be my experience.. The quieter things get, the more anxiety and discomfort arises (not always but often enough). I know that trying to get away from it just feeds it, but the urge to scratch that itch is strong. At the times when surrender has happened the intensity has been the same, but its been completely fine, without any desire for it to be different. Not sure what that "surrender" really is for you in that case, but I only see one way out of that dilemma. What is happening in the mind/body is actually being witnessed by you. Since identification is still active, for a time there may be a sense of there being two of you, a bit like Tolle's initial observation that there was an 'I' that can't live with 'myself'. From that position, the anxiety will naturally subside. However, this is different from shifting attention away from the thoughts to sense perception. There's not a turning away from thought/feeling so much as a disidentification with it. It is more.....challenging, but it is the truth you are after and not another escape plan. It is the truth that you are the silent witness. When its happened, the surrender has just been a simple allowing of things to be as they are. Yeah,.. identification is still active. And yeah,. I am well and truly tired of yet another escape plan. not much to say then eh?
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 11, 2014 21:51:30 GMT -5
Have you noticed that different people notice the same experience differently? Have you ever noticed that you only need one hand to reach your ass? <shakes head sadly>
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Post by laughter on Dec 12, 2014 7:41:54 GMT -5
Have you ever noticed that you only need one hand to reach your ass? <shakes head sadly>One asinine question elicits another in reply.
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Post by enigma on Dec 12, 2014 14:38:35 GMT -5
One asinine question elicits another in reply. Entirely acausal, of course.
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Post by earnest on Dec 12, 2014 16:43:37 GMT -5
This seems to be my experience.. The quieter things get, the more anxiety and discomfort arises (not always but often enough). I know that trying to get away from it just feeds it, but the urge to scratch that itch is strong. At the times when surrender has happened the intensity has been the same, but its been completely fine, without any desire for it to be different. Not sure what that "surrender" really is for you in that case, but I only see one way out of that dilemma. What is happening in the mind/body is actually being witnessed by you. Since identification is still active, for a time there may be a sense of there being two of you, a bit like Tolle's initial observation that there was an 'I' that can't live with 'myself'. From that position, the anxiety will naturally subside. However, this is different from shifting attention away from the thoughts to sense perception. There's not a turning away from thought/feeling so much as a disidentification with it. It is more.....challenging, but it is the truth you are after and not another escape plan. It is the truth that you are the silent witness. That dissidenttification could be characterised as a simple disinterest eh? (At least to start with) that it doesn't really matter what thoughts are gong through the mind, holy or otherwise?
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Post by enigma on Dec 12, 2014 16:57:32 GMT -5
Not sure what that "surrender" really is for you in that case, but I only see one way out of that dilemma. What is happening in the mind/body is actually being witnessed by you. Since identification is still active, for a time there may be a sense of there being two of you, a bit like Tolle's initial observation that there was an 'I' that can't live with 'myself'. From that position, the anxiety will naturally subside. However, this is different from shifting attention away from the thoughts to sense perception. There's not a turning away from thought/feeling so much as a disidentification with it. It is more.....challenging, but it is the truth you are after and not another escape plan. It is the truth that you are the silent witness. That dissidenttification could be characterised as a simple disinterest eh? (At least to start with) that it doesn't really matter what thoughts are gong through the mind, holy or otherwise? Yeah, a disinterest, though that disinterest is a reflection of the absence of belief in that identity. The interest is part of mind's conditioning.
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Post by earnest on Dec 12, 2014 17:48:56 GMT -5
That dissidenttification could be characterised as a simple disinterest eh? (At least to start with) that it doesn't really matter what thoughts are gong through the mind, holy or otherwise? Yeah, a disinterest, though that disinterest is a reflection of the absence of belief in that identity. The interest is part of mind's conditioning. Cool beans,.. let the erosion continue.
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