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Post by laughter on Sept 22, 2014 16:57:33 GMT -5
sv, if you'd like to say, I'd be interested in how long ago the self-inquiry experience happened and for how long you'd been meditating prior to that, but as always, feel free to remain silent! Like I said earlier, I'm extremely spontaneous and follow my impulses vs scheduling, rules, etc. Which, in fact, sometime kicks me on a b... ))))) So, whenever I feel like "get in touch with silence" I'd do that. I think it's irrelevant how long ago the self-inquiry experience happened..., it happened and I'm glad I've had a tiny glimpse at alternative state of mind or, so called, "no-mind". Prior to 'who am I" there were several instances of spontaneous "slip offs" to ALT states. For example : I was sitting on the couch and saying outloud a single word "umbrella", next - the meaning of the word began disappearing, just like pilling the onion, layer by layer and I thought "am I crazy?" Then nothing left from that word, but strange ringing in my ears. Then my body transformed into ONE HUGE PULSATION and the wall in front of me began breathing, it was alive... Another example: I decided to meditate, so again, laying on bed and staring at the ceiling fan I lost all my body sensations and , all of a sudden, the evil laugh began penetrating my entire being, it was louder and louder and I had really hard time to stop.... Another yet: Under general anesthesia I had a very split mind sensation, I was a tiny cell among other tiny cells that were dividing in a crazy speed. Then the waking up stage of it was like me trying to come through a flat rotating surface from "that world" to "this world".
AFTER "who am I" there was in the middle of the night some kind of "epiphany-love-expanding" experience, where my solar plexus was emanating COMPASSIONATE COSMIC LOVE, poring it out of me, making me feel ENDLESS in total harmony. And the very base of my throat was acting like a pulse, like something about to be born.
Anyway, these kind of spontaneous experiences are taking place from time to time, and I don't prepare myself for them to happen, they just happen leaving me wondering, pondering, thinking and searching..., I don't really know what am I searching for... Do you find these experiences scary because they sort of differentiate from the mainstream? ... essentially, that they were "reality benders"? Have you spoken with anyone about them? If so, what kind of reactions did you get?
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 22, 2014 19:03:44 GMT -5
Like I said earlier, I'm extremely spontaneous and follow my impulses vs scheduling, rules, etc. Which, in fact, sometime kicks me on a b... ))))) So, whenever I feel like "get in touch with silence" I'd do that. I think it's irrelevant how long ago the self-inquiry experience happened..., it happened and I'm glad I've had a tiny glimpse at alternative state of mind or, so called, "no-mind". Prior to 'who am I" there were several instances of spontaneous "slip offs" to ALT states. For example : I was sitting on the couch and saying outloud a single word "umbrella", next - the meaning of the word began disappearing, just like pilling the onion, layer by layer and I thought "am I crazy?" Then nothing left from that word, but strange ringing in my ears. Then my body transformed into ONE HUGE PULSATION and the wall in front of me began breathing, it was alive... Another example: I decided to meditate, so again, laying on bed and staring at the ceiling fan I lost all my body sensations and , all of a sudden, the evil laugh began penetrating my entire being, it was louder and louder and I had really hard time to stop.... Another yet: Under general anesthesia I had a very split mind sensation, I was a tiny cell among other tiny cells that were dividing in a crazy speed. Then the waking up stage of it was like me trying to come through a flat rotating surface from "that world" to "this world".
AFTER "who am I" there was in the middle of the night some kind of "epiphany-love-expanding" experience, where my solar plexus was emanating COMPASSIONATE COSMIC LOVE, poring it out of me, making me feel ENDLESS in total harmony. And the very base of my throat was acting like a pulse, like something about to be born.
Anyway, these kind of spontaneous experiences are taking place from time to time, and I don't prepare myself for them to happen, they just happen leaving me wondering, pondering, thinking and searching..., I don't really know what am I searching for... Do you find these experiences scary because they sort of differentiate from the mainstream? ... essentially, that they were "reality benders"? Have you spoken with anyone about them? If so, what kind of reactions did you get? Ha-ha, 'reality benders'!!! No, mainstream did not effect on my being scarred. I am sure it's a 100% of a fear to loose identity and fall into VOID. Even though, we read about multiple planes and we do have some basic intellectual understanding of BACKGROUND-REALITY, it's one thing to read and feed your ever hungry intellect, that's another thing DIRECT EXPERIENCE. There is no comparison! In the process of Direct Experience you forget all your readings, knowings, theories ... etc. You are staring in the FACE of REALITY like a rabbit staring at cobra... ))))))) Hypnotized, perplexed, and disbelieving that all that is taking place right before your own eyes is VIVID and REAL. Direct experience is an exam for 'readiness', so to speak, do we really made up our mind to be a Pioneer in this 'Business of Seeking'... Ha-ha-ha... Well, these kind of experiences are very personal and I've done a little sharing with some people. I was choosing carefully, so the ones that heard my 'stories' were from the team of 'seekers'. Some of them were skeptical and thought that I've possess a great imagination... and it was simply me dreaming... Some were jealous and tried to discourage me, calling me names.., etc. And some were genuinely surprised. Some were scarred. But whoever, whatever were saying - none of it could or would effect me whatsoever!
I knew what I went through and I was not dreaming either! I often have dreams and know the difference between dream and something totally vivid. Similarly, when I was sharing my first out-of-body.
Anyway, here I am, sharing it with you and whoever happened to read this.
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Post by laughter on Sept 22, 2014 20:02:35 GMT -5
Do you find these experiences scary because they sort of differentiate from the mainstream? ... essentially, that they were "reality benders"? Have you spoken with anyone about them? If so, what kind of reactions did you get? Ha-ha, 'reality benders'!!! No, mainstream did not effect on my being scarred. I am sure it's a 100% of a fear to loose identity and fall into VOID. Even though, we read about multiple planes and we do have some basic intellectual understanding of BACKGROUND-REALITY, it's one thing to read and feed your ever hungry intellect, that's another thing DIRECT EXPERIENCE. There is no comparison! In the process of Direct Experience you forget all your readings, knowings, theories ... etc. You are staring in the FACE of REALITY like a rabbit staring at cobra... ))))))) Hypnotized, perplexed, and disbelieving that all that is taking place right before your own eyes is VIVID and REAL. Direct experience is an exam for 'readiness', so to speak, do we really made up our mind to be a Pioneer in this 'Business of Seeking'... Ha-ha-ha... Well, these kind of experiences are very personal and I've done a little sharing with some people. I was choosing carefully, so the ones that heard my 'stories' were from the team of 'seekers'. Some of them were skeptical and thought that I've possess a great imagination... and it was simply me dreaming... Some were jealous and tried to discourage me, calling me names.., etc. And some were genuinely surprised. Some were scarred. But whoever, whatever were saying - none of it could or would effect me whatsoever!
I knew what I went through and I was not dreaming either! I often have dreams and know the difference between dream and something totally vivid. Similarly, when I was sharing my first out-of-body.
Anyway, here I am, sharing it with you and whoever happened to read this.
Well, thanks for sharing, and yes, I can't disagree that on this topic in particular, the ideas about it can at best ever graze the underlying experience. In terms of those different perspectives on your descriptions that you encountered, what I've found is that each of them have the potential to convey information that can shed light on the nature of the source of the fear.
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 22, 2014 22:23:25 GMT -5
Well, thanks for sharing, and yes, I can't disagree that on this topic in particular, the ideas about it can at best ever graze the underlying experience. In terms of those different perspectives on your descriptions that you encountered, what I've found is that each of them have the potential to convey information that can shed light on the nature of the source of the fear. Really?! I'd love to hear that information. Will you explain it, if possible.
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Post by laughter on Sept 23, 2014 12:21:51 GMT -5
Well, thanks for sharing, and yes, I can't disagree that on this topic in particular, the ideas about it can at best ever graze the underlying experience. In terms of those different perspectives on your descriptions that you encountered, what I've found is that each of them have the potential to convey information that can shed light on the nature of the source of the fear. Really?! I'd love to hear that information. Will you explain it, if possible.
Ok, I will, I promise, but first ... These seekers that you mentioned, did you meet any of them in person? And, what is it that they said they were seeking? What is it that you thought they were seeking?
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 23, 2014 17:36:43 GMT -5
Ok, I will, I promise, but first ... These seekers that you mentioned, did you meet any of them in person? And, what is it that they said they were seeking? What is it that you thought they were seeking? I've met only one guy in person. In fact, he was the very first person who introduced me to some literature on Indian yoga, the content of which was not about different kind of asanas, but more on prana, mantras and some philosophical aspects of yoga. Interestingly enough, the reading process itself was for me something I'd call dramatically cathartic. My body was vibrating or even trembling like a 'nervous dog' and I could notice with my peripheral vision some violet colored light is watching me, it seemed that light was a curious entity.
This guy was not "official seeker", rather reserved and quiet. But, he was interested in occult and meditation, Eastern philosophy and martial arts. The rest of "seekers" I've met virtually, from different spiritual forums, most of them did not have any personal experiences, but simply exchanging some reading material and presented themselves as superiors to others. It's hard to say what they were seeking, they did not talk about it, but tried to "teach" everybody else.
I thought, at first, that they are sincere and friendly. And have plenty to share of their own direct 'spiritual' experience. But as time showed, all they really did was making fools of other people, did not express any compassion or even tried to understand. There is something I noticed about "groups" and "individuals", regardless its location. When in group, people(including me) are acting more aggressive and critical. When you talk to somebody "one on one" then that person transforming into more sincere and kind.
Nobody really knows what they are seeking, they might label it 'enlightenment', 'realization', 'nirvana'... etc. We are getting dissatisfied with external world and this is when THE CALL from SILENT PRESENCE began its appearance for you, for me, for anybody who is willing to hear it. Is there a real sound?! No... "Truth" is happening, yet unspoken...
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Post by laughter on Sept 23, 2014 23:21:39 GMT -5
Ok, I will, I promise, but first ... These seekers that you mentioned, did you meet any of them in person? And, what is it that they said they were seeking? What is it that you thought they were seeking? I've met only one guy in person. In fact, he was the very first person who introduced me to some literature on Indian yoga, the content of which was not about different kind of asanas, but more on prana, mantras and some philosophical aspects of yoga. Interestingly enough, the reading process itself was for me something I'd call dramatically cathartic. My body was vibrating or even trembling like a 'nervous dog' and I could notice with my peripheral vision some violet colored light is watching me, it seemed that light was a curious entity.
This guy was not "official seeker", rather reserved and quiet. But, he was interested in occult and meditation, Eastern philosophy and martial arts. The rest of "seekers" I've met virtually, from different spiritual forums, most of them did not have any personal experiences, but simply exchanging some reading material and presented themselves as superiors to others. It's hard to say what they were seeking, they did not talk about it, but tried to "teach" everybody else.
I thought, at first, that they are sincere and friendly. And have plenty to share of their own direct 'spiritual' experience. But as time showed, all they really did was making fools of other people, did not express any compassion or even tried to understand. There is something I noticed about "groups" and "individuals", regardless its location. When in group, people(including me) are acting more aggressive and critical. When you talk to somebody "one on one" then that person transforming into more sincere and kind.
Nobody really knows what they are seeking, they might label it 'enlightenment', 'realization', 'nirvana'... etc. We are getting dissatisfied with external world and this is when THE CALL from SILENT PRESENCE began its appearance for you, for me, for anybody who is willing to hear it. Is there a real sound?! No... "Truth" is happening, yet unspoken...
Yes, this dynamic that you describe is one I've seen play out quite a bit. So would you say that you don't know what you are seeking via self-inqury? As far as the fear is concerned, has anyone ever suggested to you that the source is a facet of yourself? Has anyone ever suggested that the source of it is a thought process in your mind that involves identification with what appears to you? Has anyone suggested that, during self-inquiry, as the fear arises, to try to discern that that which would fear, as not what you are?
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 24, 2014 8:37:45 GMT -5
Yes, this dynamic that you describe is one I've seen play out quite a bit. So would you say that you don't know what you are seeking via self-inqury? As far as the fear is concerned, has anyone ever suggested to you that the source is a facet of yourself? Has anyone ever suggested that the source of it is a thought process in your mind that involves identification with what appears to you? Has anyone suggested that, during self-inquiry, as the fear arises, to try to discern that that which would fear, as not what you are? Thank you for friendly reminder
Puppet = Puppeteer ....
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Post by laughter on Sept 24, 2014 14:26:11 GMT -5
Yes, this dynamic that you describe is one I've seen play out quite a bit. So would you say that you don't know what you are seeking via self-inqury? As far as the fear is concerned, has anyone ever suggested to you that the source is a facet of yourself? Has anyone ever suggested that the source of it is a thought process in your mind that involves identification with what appears to you? Has anyone suggested that, during self-inquiry, as the fear arises, to try to discern that that which would fear, as not what you are? Thank you for friendly reminder
Puppet = Puppeteer .... You're welcome! Are you interested in a particular point that I've learned along the way as far as seeking is concerned, on what it means about myself? ps: some seekers draw the logical conclusion that this means that they are their own personal puppeteer or (much worse!) that they are the puppeteer. ... neither are true.
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 24, 2014 15:05:14 GMT -5
You're welcome! Are you interested in a particular point that I've learned along the way as far as seeking is concerned, on what it means about myself? ps: some seekers draw the logical conclusion that this means that they are their own personal puppeteer or (much worse!) that they are the puppeteer. ... neither are true. "I" IS very much INTERESTED .... Moreover, "I" wants to KNOW... once and for all... Anyway, you've got me "re-confused".. hahaha! What is what? Who is who? 'personal' puppeteer.., 'the' puppeteer.., ETC. Consider me as a white screen, and start creatively "disillusiate" me... hahaha! I would love to participate in this process.
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Post by laughter on Sept 24, 2014 15:29:40 GMT -5
You're welcome! Are you interested in a particular point that I've learned along the way as far as seeking is concerned, on what it means about myself? ps: some seekers draw the logical conclusion that this means that they are their own personal puppeteer or (much worse!) that they are the puppeteer. ... neither are true. "I" IS very much INTERESTED .... Moreover, "I" wants to KNOW... once and for all... Anyway, you've got me "re-confused".. hahaha! What is what? Who is who? 'personal' puppeteer.., 'the' puppeteer.., ETC. Consider me as a white screen, and start creatively "disillusiate" me... hahaha! I would love to participate in this process. Well sv, self-inquiry isn't something that one can do for another. As far as that particular point previously alluded to is concerned, what I learned along the way from seeking is that what is sought is so profoundly powerful as to sometines blind one to some very very simple conclusions that the mind can wind up settling on. It's interesting to notice how the same movement of mind that is the source of fear can be the source of embarrassment at this, and, in the final analysis, it's all just a silly nonsense! I like this song as an allusion to this process of complication, and it has an ironic little twist embodied in the title as well. While I might be able to guess at what you are confused about, if you'd like me to write more on it, then please indicate to me exactly what that is -- but I preface the dialog to come with the following disclaimer: I do not guarantee that what I will write in reply will only add to the confusion rather than clearing it up!
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 24, 2014 16:14:14 GMT -5
Well sv, self-inquiry isn't something that one can do for another. As far as that particular point previously alluded to is concerned, what I learned along the way from seeking is that what is sought is so profoundly powerful as to sometines blind one to some very very simple conclusions that the mind can wind up settling on. It's interesting to notice how the same movement of mind that is the source of fear can be the source of embarrassment at this, and, in the final analysis, it's all just a silly nonsense! I like this song as an allusion to this process of complication, and it has an ironic little twist embodied in the title as well. While I might be able to guess at what you are confused about, if you'd like me to write more on it, then please indicate to me exactly what that is -- but I preface the dialog to come with the following disclaimer: I do not guarantee that what I will write in reply will only add to the confusion rather than clearing it up! Thanks for being creative! So, mind cannot settle?! Its movement taking different stages and no matter what you do in order to shut it up, it continues making moves... Where the thoughts are coming from? Better yet, where the ORIGINAL THOUGHT came from?
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Post by laughter on Sept 24, 2014 17:55:25 GMT -5
Well sv, self-inquiry isn't something that one can do for another. As far as that particular point previously alluded to is concerned, what I learned along the way from seeking is that what is sought is so profoundly powerful as to sometines blind one to some very very simple conclusions that the mind can wind up settling on. It's interesting to notice how the same movement of mind that is the source of fear can be the source of embarrassment at this, and, in the final analysis, it's all just a silly nonsense! I like this song as an allusion to this process of complication, and it has an ironic little twist embodied in the title as well. While I might be able to guess at what you are confused about, if you'd like me to write more on it, then please indicate to me exactly what that is -- but I preface the dialog to come with the following disclaimer: I do not guarantee that what I will write in reply will only add to the confusion rather than clearing it up! Thanks for being creative! So, mind cannot settle?! Its movement taking different stages and no matter what you do in order to shut it up, it continues making moves... Where the thoughts are coming from? Better yet, where the ORIGINAL THOUGHT came from?
The notion of the "Original Thought", similar to the notion of the puppeteer, is just a contrivance that arises toward the purpose of spinning the movement endlessly on nothing toward nowhere. This question of "where do the thoughts come from?" ... in my opinion, this is an excellent question to ask and to form the basis of inquiry during meditation. Do you see how it is related to the question of self-inquiry? Bear in mind, that meditation doesn't have to be relegated to fixed and set times. Every instant is an opportunity for it. If you would like, I can share with you some thoughts about, and some descriptions of the answers to this question that I've arrived at during that kind of inquiry.
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soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 24, 2014 19:11:35 GMT -5
The notion of the "Original Thought", similar to the notion of the puppeteer, is just a contrivance that arises toward the purpose of spinning the movement endlessly on nothing toward nowhere. This question of "where do the thoughts come from?" ... in my opinion, this is an excellent question to ask and to form the basis of inquiry during meditation. Do you see how it is related to the question of self-inquiry? Bear in mind, that meditation doesn't have to be relegated to fixed and set times. Every instant is an opportunity for it. If you would like, I can share with you some thoughts about, and some descriptions of the answers to this question that I've arrived at during that kind of inquiry. HaHaHa! I am trying to escape from "spinning vacancy"..., great example!!! Thank you!Absolutely, yes, please share your thoughts... I wonder where did they come from?
And yes, I agree that opportunity for meditation is presenting itself every moment. My father likes to say that even washing dishes by hand is a great way to meditate...
Question : How question on "Original Thought" is different from question on "where do thoughts come from"? The main point is a SEED of the thought, not a symptom of it coming here...
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Post by laughter on Sept 24, 2014 23:28:45 GMT -5
The notion of the "Original Thought", similar to the notion of the puppeteer, is just a contrivance that arises toward the purpose of spinning the movement endlessly on nothing toward nowhere. This question of "where do the thoughts come from?" ... in my opinion, this is an excellent question to ask and to form the basis of inquiry during meditation. Do you see how it is related to the question of self-inquiry? Bear in mind, that meditation doesn't have to be relegated to fixed and set times. Every instant is an opportunity for it. If you would like, I can share with you some thoughts about, and some descriptions of the answers to this question that I've arrived at during that kind of inquiry. HaHaHa! I am trying to escape from "spinning vacancy"..., great example!!! Thank you!Absolutely, yes, please share your thoughts... I wonder where did they come from?
And yes, I agree that opportunity for meditation is presenting itself every moment. My father likes to say that even washing dishes by hand is a great way to meditate...
Question : How question on "Original Thought" is different from question on "where do thoughts come from"? The main point is a SEED of the thought, not a symptom of it coming here...
The differences between the two questions are what is presupposed by them. Isn't the "ORIGINAL THOUGHT" based on the notion that there will be some explanation of how somethingness arose from nothingness? Isn't it the invitation to create a myth about creation? "Where do thoughts come from?" is based, first, on the self-evidence that that there is thinking going on, that this is a process that goes in cycles that have beginnings and endings. It also presupposes that the thoughts come from somewhere, that they have a source -- to be honest with you, in the final analysis, this is a misconception, but since we're discussing self-inquiry in the context of meditation, that seemed to me to come along for the ride. "What is the ORIGINAL THOUGHT?" is the start of abstraction, while "Where do thoughts come from?" is something that you can investigate in your direct experience. Do you still want to hear what I've picked up on the notion of the source of thoughts along the way? Dad sounds like a cool dude. Is he still with you? Was he into Zen? What did/does meditation mean to him?
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