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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 8:21:22 GMT -5
yes indeedy. I think tzu has earned one of these - he's definitely right up there with dr seuss That is a clever hat Red is this white is that A big floppy brim to disguise him within
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Post by silver on Sept 25, 2014 8:24:43 GMT -5
kinda catchy...that poetry bizness, ha ha!
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 27, 2014 12:01:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I must be slow on the uptake tonight. No worries, I'm sure it's me and the day in my head. So, Tzu's idea is that we ARE mind/bodies, yes? Furthermore, that mind/body does not constitute self, which is consciousness, and the stuff we are made of does not equal self. Is that right? When hit by a car, what are the two piles? And don't mean to speak for Tzu, but I'd say yes. The two piles, There used to be this concept of vital force which was the difference between a living body and a dead body, which leaves the body when it dies. Science today (and probably for about a hundred years) can't find any evidence for it and so doesn't believe in a vital force. For me, information is what constitutes life and consciousness and identity. Information exists in the neural structure, brain (cortex, limbic system/mammalian brain, reptilian brain), sensory neurons and motor neurons. If a particular body gets degraded by accident or disease, it dies. We know that the genetic information that constitutes our body began with just 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother 23 from the father, a lot of information in a tiny space. We know there are numerous ways to store and transfer information. You have Mozart or Bach floating through your house right now, just turn on a radio and you can tune in to the information. Scientists are even talking about some day being able to collect all the information of someone's neural structure, encode it in a laser beam, shoot it across the galaxy to an inhabited planet and reconstitute a physical body, restore the beginning consciousness. That's easier and less expensive than space travel. So all you need to do is "save" and transfer the information that constitutes self and/or "soul". So......I see no reason why the evolution of consciousness can't proceed from one life to another, that the information that constitutes self doesn't necessarily die when the physical body dies. So one's actions might have consequences past the life of the body, that's how I try to live anyway........... sdp So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 27, 2014 12:18:38 GMT -5
Exactly. And to be more verbose, the existential pain that was being experienced by the mind/body at that point DID want to think that it all was for a "reason". It's likely that the catholick conditioning played a large part of that! hehe Strangely, in hindsight, after it all came tumbling down, the role of catholickism was kind of mentalized as an important part of the development of the psyche for a while. This illusory time period was referred to in the other post, when living amongst the missionaries. I understood what they sensed that they were trying to do, and that they thought it was good, but it was indeed guided by an abstract rendition of the world filtered through belief. I listened deeply, felt their separation and longing, and saw how it spurred all kinds of "works" for the Lord that they were imagining. Ironically, I also knew that they needed to wake up first, and get a glimpse of jc's realization. That the psyche would have to develop into some illusive substantial thing that would then fall, and then wake up, and then realize the truth of its own lack of quality, did seem to make sense. Of course, later, it was realized that even that was a story trying to take hold as "a truth". As if there should be some kind of admonition, "first, go out and build illusory self up and then worry about trying to wake up". I simply don't know what "should happen" per se, but to this non-localized view, the pointers of non-duality towards truth seem to ring true when consciously interacting here in the mirage of life. Disclaimer: The previous babbling may sound like a personal story, but it's actually about the dissolving of anything personal. Furthermore, without realization, the following pointer will appear just as words, and likely doubted. Truth simply is. Nothing is looking out across the vast expanse of the universe It is imagining through the function of mind. All that is imagined, thoughts, perceptions, or otherwise, is impermanent and not true. Nothing is sacred. Perfectly so. 'Truth' is the experience itself, not the words, labels, descriptions, beliefs and pointings we assign to those experiences.. Worship nothing, but maintain a sacred reverence for all that is.. T-Truth subsumes experience, which includes the words, labels, descriptions etc etc. If I experience your words, labels, descriptions, etc etc (as is happening), by your account, they would be Truth. So, I'm looking at your sig, thinking about your insistence on separate self, and kind of seeing a repetitive circle.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 27, 2014 12:39:48 GMT -5
And don't mean to speak for Tzu, but I'd say yes. The two piles, There used to be this concept of vital force which was the difference between a living body and a dead body, which leaves the body when it dies. Science today (and probably for about a hundred years) can't find any evidence for it and so doesn't believe in a vital force. For me, information is what constitutes life and consciousness and identity. Information exists in the neural structure, brain (cortex, limbic system/mammalian brain, reptilian brain), sensory neurons and motor neurons. If a particular body gets degraded by accident or disease, it dies. We know that the genetic information that constitutes our body began with just 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother 23 from the father, a lot of information in a tiny space. We know there are numerous ways to store and transfer information. You have Mozart or Bach floating through your house right now, just turn on a radio and you can tune in to the information. Scientists are even talking about some day being able to collect all the information of someone's neural structure, encode it in a laser beam, shoot it across the galaxy to an inhabited planet and reconstitute a physical body, restore the beginning consciousness. That's easier and less expensive than space travel. So all you need to do is "save" and transfer the information that constitutes self and/or "soul". So......I see no reason why the evolution of consciousness can't proceed from one life to another, that the information that constitutes self doesn't necessarily die when the physical body dies. So one's actions might have consequences past the life of the body, that's how I try to live anyway........... sdp So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere. My spiritual-journey-history goes back over forty years. So everything I write comes-out-of that journey. And part of what I write from, is map (future unexplored territory). The reincarnation thing is speculative, based on the reports of others. It's essentially superfluous, because if there is an end to the journey, it's going to end in some....one....life. And a belief in reincarnation is an excuse not to take care of business right now, why do now what can be put off until later? But there are no guarantees. So why not make this life the end of the journey? So yes, I still experience my self. I'd rather not accept a theoretical construct that says there really isn't a self, I'd rather not imagine that there is no self. I see zero value in that scenario. Now, if it turns out that there is an end to self, that's OK (I highly respect Bernadette Roberts, The Experience of No-Self, etc... so that might really be the case). But imagining there isn't a self doesn't get anyone to no-self, imagining actually keeps one stuck. Now, for anyone who has realized that self is an illusion, I respect that articulation, but for me that is merely a map, it's conceptual. I have not created a prison, my experience it that I Am in prison. That has been my experience going back to my earliest memories. I can attest that the way-out is through functioning through awareness and attention, that's the escape plan. Anything else I have ever said is trying to point to that. And you can imagine that you are living through A-A, but in fact, are not. If this is the case you are still living through ego/persona/false self, 98% zombie. I don't feel responsible for mistakes people make from what I write. People always read through the filter of self (unless there has been a loss of self or one has seen through the illusion of self, in fact, not merely conceptually, but that's up to you, not me, whether it can be the case and whether it is the case). And I can't help it if there is no recognition of what I write, such is life. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. sdp
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Post by laughter on Sept 27, 2014 13:12:02 GMT -5
And don't mean to speak for Tzu, but I'd say yes. The two piles, There used to be this concept of vital force which was the difference between a living body and a dead body, which leaves the body when it dies. Science today (and probably for about a hundred years) can't find any evidence for it and so doesn't believe in a vital force. For me, information is what constitutes life and consciousness and identity. Information exists in the neural structure, brain (cortex, limbic system/mammalian brain, reptilian brain), sensory neurons and motor neurons. If a particular body gets degraded by accident or disease, it dies. We know that the genetic information that constitutes our body began with just 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother 23 from the father, a lot of information in a tiny space. We know there are numerous ways to store and transfer information. You have Mozart or Bach floating through your house right now, just turn on a radio and you can tune in to the information. Scientists are even talking about some day being able to collect all the information of someone's neural structure, encode it in a laser beam, shoot it across the galaxy to an inhabited planet and reconstitute a physical body, restore the beginning consciousness. That's easier and less expensive than space travel. So all you need to do is "save" and transfer the information that constitutes self and/or "soul". So......I see no reason why the evolution of consciousness can't proceed from one life to another, that the information that constitutes self doesn't necessarily die when the physical body dies. So one's actions might have consequences past the life of the body, that's how I try to live anyway........... sdp So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere.
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Post by silver on Sept 27, 2014 13:17:35 GMT -5
u have a great gif
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 27, 2014 13:23:17 GMT -5
Would you say there's value in the words, trying to understand them, and/or trying to decipher what he was pointing to? Or would you be more the "find your own path" kinda dude? Transforming 'self' seems more related to change, rather than transcendence of it; wouldn't you say? To me, jc was talking about the latter, to be sure. Hey sN.......I think there is value in the words alone, but we probably don't know what all the actual words were. The most important words might not have been recorded, and all languages have idioms, uses of words that can't be translated, you just have to know what they mean from cultural context. We use idioms every day, It's raining cats and dogs, I'm between a rock and a hard place, you can't get there from here, drinks are on the house. And different occupations have their own lingo. Jesus and the disciples didn't speak Greek, so there is a translation problem from the very beginning. I personally believe the first written scripture was in Aramaic. So the value of the words is in their pointing to something else, yes, what Jesus was pointing to. I'm not a "find your own path kinda dude". I'm a why try to reinvent the wheel? kinda dude. I think jc was talking about transforming self and then transcending self, there is an order and sequence, you can't transcend without transforming. .........So you might come across a path, the problem is recognizing a path. A distorted ego/personality almost by definition can't recognize a path that leads to transformation and transcendence. So you have to have something in yourself that can recognize a path if you come across it. sdp The pointer he gave was "I and the father are one", which was a language and sign of the times. To paraphrase in the context of this forum, "I am Awareness", and he went on and on like a madman trying to get peeps to wake up and realize. He confused the crap outta people, to be sure! What all he said, I do not know, but to understand the pointers of stuff found in the Nag Hammadi is going to require a bit of destruction. As such, a "path" might be better understood as a trail of destruction held in memory, and will never be repeated twice. But it is not what is actual; it is an illusion. You look back and see all the silly stuff that once captivated the unique little you. All the realizations of such false beliefs (i.e., not completely true), give rise to clarity. What you've realized and subsequently left behind are the transcended boundaries, providing a larger, more expansive, honest and impersonal view. It will look very different than jc's alleged story, but you "and" awareness will be one.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 27, 2014 13:25:19 GMT -5
So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere. Tears!!
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Post by laughter on Sept 27, 2014 13:29:45 GMT -5
what I have I done to deserve such pun ishment??
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 27, 2014 13:49:28 GMT -5
So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere. My spiritual-journey-history goes back over forty years. So everything I write comes-out-of that journey. And part of what I write from, is map (future unexplored territory). The reincarnation thing is speculative, based on the reports of others. It's essentially superfluous, because if there is an end to the journey, it's going to end in some....one....life. And a belief in reincarnation is an excuse not to take care of business right now, why do now what can be put off until later? But there are no guarantees. So why not make this life the end of the journey? So yes, I still experience my self. I'd rather not accept a theoretical construct that says there really isn't a self, I'd rather not imagine that there is no self. I see zero value in that scenario. Now, if it turns out that there is an end to self, that's OK (I highly respect Bernadette Roberts, The Experience of No-Self, etc... so that might really be the case). But imagining there isn't a self doesn't get anyone to no-self, imagining actually keeps one stuck. Now, for anyone who has realized that self is an illusion, I respect that articulation, but for me that is merely a map, it's conceptual. I have not created a prison, my experience it that I Am in prison. That has been my experience going back to my earliest memories. I can attest that the way-out is through functioning through awareness and attention, that's the escape plan. Anything else I have ever said is trying to point to that. And you can imagine that you are living through A-A, but in fact, are not. If this is the case you are still living through ego/persona/false self, 98% zombie. I don't feel responsible for mistakes people make from what I write. People always read through the filter of self (unless there has been a loss of self or one has seen through the illusion of self, in fact, not merely conceptually, but that's up to you, not me, whether it can be the case and whether it is the case). And I can't help it if there is no recognition of what I write, such is life. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. sdp Okey dokey. I'll just leave these over here on the table of concepts for your perusal then.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2014 17:50:33 GMT -5
When will this distortion of women stop? Considering the anti-female views proselytized by many (if not most) of the world's religions, and the fear that most uneducated men have regarding women gaining power or equality of any kind, I suspect that it will be a long long time in the future. So to move past religion is to move into a lot of what is pointed to in here yeah? ...~... Like I decided to watch one of the beheadings that is happening prolifically now within the internet, a couple of nights ago. And basically if Apple would have been around in the days of the gas chambers of Auschwitz then we would have had live streamed gasings of Jews available to us from the comfort of our computer monitor. Really the reason that women are subjugated in the name of religion is that we have the innate power, and direct respondancy to stop such barbarics that men perpetrate upon each other in the name of Love/God. We know through direct perception that each man killed is another woman's son. Born of her body. Born of an egg, that she has had anatomically with her, since she was born, not just a sperm mass produced on the day of pro-creation. That is, and always will be more powerful than any man's ideas of what he is, and what fight he wants to get out of his pit for.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 28, 2014 0:01:12 GMT -5
'Truth' is the experience itself, not the words, labels, descriptions, beliefs and pointings we assign to those experiences.. Worship nothing, but maintain a sacred reverence for all that is.. T-Truth subsumes experience, which includes the words, labels, descriptions etc etc. If I experience your words, labels, descriptions, etc etc (as is happening), by your account, they would be Truth. So, I'm looking at your sig, thinking about your insistence on separate self, and kind of seeing a repetitive circle. No, your 'experience' of those "words, labels, descriptions, etc etc" is true/happening.. the words only become 'true for you' when you believe they do..
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 28, 2014 22:31:12 GMT -5
T-Truth subsumes experience, which includes the words, labels, descriptions etc etc. If I experience your words, labels, descriptions, etc etc (as is happening), by your account, they would be Truth. So, I'm looking at your sig, thinking about your insistence on separate self, and kind of seeing a repetitive circle. No, your 'experience' of those "words, labels, descriptions, etc etc" is true/happening.. the words only become 'true for you' when you believe they do.. Yes, that an experience of the "words, labels, etc etc" happens is true, and yes, "true" only when believed and in a relative contextual sense. Your insistence on separation being the case is just that, believed to be true. And such separation can not appear true without that belief. Perhaps in the quietness of mind, if not for a sec, an awareness of that will dawn. What gives rise to the insistence of separation, which actually takes effort to maintain?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 28, 2014 22:34:58 GMT -5
So, you identify with a self, believe it to be an individual separate consciousness (from the rest, and housed in a body of your making), create a prison of belief based on a (shall we say growing or morphing?- in your experience) set of beliefs that supports that initial belief in separation, and then proceed to make a plan for an escape? BTW, you ain't going nowhere. Still laughing!! lol
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