Do you value meditation.

[steven]

Regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience of meditation is the same.

One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation.

The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation.

There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation.

Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state.

For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration.

I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work.

You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS.

This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation.




The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely.

It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention.

And therein is all the difference.

[steven]

Gets you votes in folks...its scientifical :-)

[Deleted]

its either never or continuously, don't know

what's the difference?



edit: oh, I just read the OP

yup, sticking with .. never or continuously, depending on your wording

;-)

[silence]

[figgles]

Sept 13, 2014 13:12:13 GMT -5 steven said:

Regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience of meditation is the same.

One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation.

The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation.

There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation.

Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state.

For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration.

I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work.

You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS.

This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation.




The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely.

It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention.

And therein is all the difference.

Great descriptions Steve. I agree that any activity where there is sustained focus, where the sense of doership drops away, IS a form of meditation. Painting and song writing are for me, such activities.

What I've noticed though is that when more formal sittings become regular, so does a profound synchronicity within my overall experience. Life becomes a series of related thoughts and events. The content of night time dreams, for example, becomes manifest in my waking reality and/or a thought arises, then shortly after, a happening that matches it perfectly.

Would be interested to hear if an increase in really profound and obvious synchronicity is something you or others notice, seemingly as a by-product of what is deemed as more 'formal ' meditation...?

[silver]

I don't do any fancy meditating -- it's just catch as catch can in my waking hours.

[laughter]

Sept 16, 2014 13:33:49 GMT -5 silver said:

I don't do any fancy meditating -- it's just catch as catch can in my waking hours.

[japhy]

Sept 13, 2014 13:12:13 GMT -5 steven said:

It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention.

And therein is all the difference.

Life is a succession of absorbtion states.

[steven]

Sept 17, 2014 9:24:03 GMT -5 japhy said:

Sept 13, 2014 13:12:13 GMT -5 steven said:

It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention.

And therein is all the difference.

Life is a succession of absorbtion states.

If you must define it, thats as good as any box I guess.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2014 23:40:26 GMT -5 steven said:

Sept 17, 2014 9:24:03 GMT -5 japhy said:

Life is a succession of absorbtion states.

If you must define it, thats as good as any box I guess.

returning to our true nature
is meditation.
Those that try
go in the opposite direction

[tzujanli]

Sept 13, 2014 13:12:13 GMT -5 steven said:

Regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience of meditation is the same.

One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation.

The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation.

There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation.

Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state.

For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration.

I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work.

You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS.

This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation.




The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely.

It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention.

And therein is all the difference.

The 'increasing' you speak of is a natural by-product of choosing a still mind's awareness.. there is no 'increasing' when the mind is still, you are alertness/focus/concentration 'happening'.. the 'doing' happens when the experiencer chooses clarity as the vehicle of their relationship with existence, the doing ceases when the mind is still..

Meditation happens when the experiencer is engaged in one activity or all activities, meditation references a state of mind, not visualization or contemplation 'about' something.. meditation, as a an authentic direct experience, is the absence of attachment, a letting go into liberated awareness..