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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 11:58:19 GMT -5
Why go the God route at all? Seems complicated. He believes in a supreme ordering intelligence, and I would say if we're going to talk about this stuff, we need to refer to Intelligence (or Awareness, or whatever). We do it all the time here, and we sometimes substitute 'God'. Doesn't the term intelligence also assume a bit much? Seems like a projection, a making-sense-of reaction to the experience of awe.
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 14:26:03 GMT -5
Either consciousness arises out of matter or matter arises out of consciousness. If matter comes first then you have to answer the question of where matter came from. Stephen Hawking thinks he has answered that, merely because of the quantum nature of reality. I don't think this gets us anywhere, you can't get something from nothing. The quantum nature of reality had to come from somewhere. Anyway, Consciousness-first makes the most sense to me, answers more questions. This is in answer to a few other posts as well......... sdp The God answer fits for most questions. But as we've gone along there are more detailed and compelling answers that can be supported with evidence. Just because a question doesn't currently have an answer other than God doesn't mean there won't be one someday. Why does the sun go across the sky like that? Well there's a god named Apollo who has a job to pull it across like that. Well it's because men live on earth and since we're a reflection of God and all things center around God, the sun revolves around the earth. How did this all begin? Well God made it happen about 2000 years ago in six days.... The question 'which came first matter or consciousness?' has built within it all sorts of assumptions that would need to be teased out. Does matter exist? What is it? Does consciousness exist? what is it? Can something be said to come first? ... Many of these subquestions are pretty fresh and alive right now. God as an answer, if looking at it's function in answering questions, is continually losing its power relative to explanations provided by science. I'd say, in a very general sense, if we're having trouble coming up with good answers, we're probly asking the wrong questions.
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 14:37:14 GMT -5
He believes in a supreme ordering intelligence, and I would say if we're going to talk about this stuff, we need to refer to Intelligence (or Awareness, or whatever). We do it all the time here, and we sometimes substitute 'God'. Doesn't the term intelligence also assume a bit much? Seems like a projection, a making-sense-of reaction to the experience of awe. What about the experience of order? I wouldn't say that's assumed, and even if it is, it seems it would require intelligence to assume it, whether you're awed or not. Sure, it's a concept, but some concepts are big enough that they don't feel restricting. My concept of God leaves lots of elbow room, though I'm aware most folks make a mess of it.
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Post by sunshine on Aug 28, 2014 14:40:01 GMT -5
There you go again with the exacting dogma that excludes all other views. Oneness is not a matter of point of view. Noticing the interconnected nature of things may be useful, but is a distorted reflection of oneness in the mind, subject to those mental boundaries. I'm pointing away from what's being reflected in the mind, to the inconceivable. There are many ways to approach the ineffable because it lies deep in the center of all inquiry. This is one way. When the mountain returns, it is no longer 'out there' and depends upon nothing. It comes to YOU as YOU. The mountain IS consciousness. Better to suspend the mental barriers for a moment that seem to separate you from the mountain, and then all that is left is to feel that intimacy and know it as YOU. If you wish, you can also do this with your mate, as this is another way to the ineffable. It may look like a joining, but you will find that it is an awakening. you are talking about a MENTAL realisation discarding the vital(life force, and the physical) for you,like most, it is so overwhelmingly real, that you forget to look any further the same realistaion (unversalistion of the energy) can be had in the vital ( life force ) and even the physical if what you say were truly your experience, you could desintegrate the mountain, and turn it into anything you liked
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 17:06:27 GMT -5
Oneness is not a matter of point of view. Noticing the interconnected nature of things may be useful, but is a distorted reflection of oneness in the mind, subject to those mental boundaries. I'm pointing away from what's being reflected in the mind, to the inconceivable. There are many ways to approach the ineffable because it lies deep in the center of all inquiry. This is one way. When the mountain returns, it is no longer 'out there' and depends upon nothing. It comes to YOU as YOU. The mountain IS consciousness. Better to suspend the mental barriers for a moment that seem to separate you from the mountain, and then all that is left is to feel that intimacy and know it as YOU. If you wish, you can also do this with your mate, as this is another way to the ineffable. It may look like a joining, but you will find that it is an awakening. you are talking about a MENTAL realisation Obviously, I'm saying the opposite in pointing away from mental boundaries. No idea what you're trying to say with energy and life force. I'm not discarding anything. The personal is an illusion. You are not a person.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2014 17:48:01 GMT -5
Either consciousness arises out of matter or matter arises out of consciousness. If matter comes first then you have to answer the question of where matter came from. Stephen Hawking thinks he has answered that, merely because of the quantum nature of reality. I don't think this gets us anywhere, you can't get something from nothing. The quantum nature of reality had to come from somewhere. Anyway, Consciousness-first makes the most sense to me, answers more questions. This is in answer to a few other posts as well......... sdp The God answer fits for most questions. But as we've gone along there are more detailed and compelling answers that can be supported with evidence. Just because a question doesn't currently have an answer other than God doesn't mean there won't be one someday. Why does the sun go across the sky like that? Well there's a god named Apollo who has a job to pull it across like that. Well it's because men live on earth and since we're a reflection of God and all things center around God, the sun revolves around the earth. How did this all begin? Well God made it happen about 2000 years ago in six days.... The question 'which came first matter or consciousness?' has built within it all sorts of assumptions that would need to be teased out. Does matter exist? What is it? Does consciousness exist? what is it? Can something be said to come first? ... Many of these subquestions are pretty fresh and alive right now. God as an answer, if looking at it's function in answering questions, is continually losing its power relative to explanations provided by science. I'd say science is batting zero on the big questions. Science can't explain why, taking the fact that entropy is always increasing, entropy was lowest at the big bang. Science can't explain how the big bang happened, why there is something rather than nothing. Science can't explain how life began, how life arises out of stuff that isn't alive. Science can't explain how consciousness arises out of life. Big fat zero. sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2014 17:49:30 GMT -5
He believes in a supreme ordering intelligence, and I would say if we're going to talk about this stuff, we need to refer to Intelligence (or Awareness, or whatever). We do it all the time here, and we sometimes substitute 'God'. Doesn't the term intelligence also assume a bit much? Seems like a projection, a making-sense-of reaction to the experience of awe. Explain all in the post above without Intelligence being first, and then we can talk. sdp
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Post by sunshine on Aug 28, 2014 18:07:22 GMT -5
you are talking about a MENTAL realisation Obviously, I'm saying the opposite in pointing away from mental boundaries. No idea what you're trying to say with energy and life force. I'm not discarding anything. The personal is an illusion. You are not a person.
yes, and there is the problem again-- -there is an individual entity, ´´soul´´ which is a product of evolution,and purification of ego,which is inside a body and is as well individual as universal- one can only become fully aware of this once one has realised both the transcendent and the personal brahman,(i am evrything without an ´´I´´) -mind can not understand this--universal and individual at the same time and those stuck in or on nirvana (like you) deny it because nirvana is so big and undeniably real that all else is seen as illusion---but that is itself an illusion experience tells us soul is the one who can take up the cosmic reins and actually be (like) the creator, in a body instead of the creator being that large impersonal undiscoverable ´´thing´´
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Post by laughter on Aug 28, 2014 18:25:23 GMT -5
The God answer fits for most questions. But as we've gone along there are more detailed and compelling answers that can be supported with evidence. Just because a question doesn't currently have an answer other than God doesn't mean there won't be one someday. Why does the sun go across the sky like that? Well there's a god named Apollo who has a job to pull it across like that. Well it's because men live on earth and since we're a reflection of God and all things center around God, the sun revolves around the earth. How did this all begin? Well God made it happen about 2000 years ago in six days.... The question 'which came first matter or consciousness?' has built within it all sorts of assumptions that would need to be teased out. Does matter exist? What is it? Does consciousness exist? what is it? Can something be said to come first? ... Many of these subquestions are pretty fresh and alive right now. God as an answer, if looking at it's function in answering questions, is continually losing its power relative to explanations provided by science. I'd say, in a very general sense, if we're having trouble coming up with good answers, we're probly asking the wrong questions. It's just the dictionary-all-words/ideas-only-point-to-other-words/ideas yawner again. There's never been a question answered by science that didn't result in more questions, and that's simply perfection in action. Limitlessness also applies to the God/science tug-of-war. No matter what explanations the scientists come up with, the diest can always question/posit some godhead prior-to or beyond it. It's just a no-brainer that for any object that can be conceived, one can always speculate about a supernatural creation of that object. As far as the potential for new scientific developments, if one looks to the future for the possibility of an explanation to obsolete current understanding, then, logically, it would follow that the future explanation would be subject to the same sort of obsolescence even further in the future. I still enjoy following popular science, but like anything else, it's worth putting it into perspective.
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Post by sunshine on Aug 28, 2014 18:39:59 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 20:20:59 GMT -5
Obviously, I'm saying the opposite in pointing away from mental boundaries. No idea what you're trying to say with energy and life force. I'm not discarding anything. The personal is an illusion. You are not a person.
yes, and there is the problem again-- -there is an individual entity, ´´soul´´ which is a product of evolution,and purification of ego,which is inside a body and is as well individual as universal- one can only become fully aware of this once one has realised both the transcendent and the personal brahman,(i am evrything without an ´´I´´) -mind can not understand this--universal and individual at the same time and those stuck in or on nirvana (like you) deny it because nirvana is so big and undeniably real that all else is seen as illusion---but that is itself an illusion experience tells us soul is the one who can take up the cosmic reins and actually be (like) the creator, in a body instead of the creator being that large impersonal undiscoverable ´´thing´´
So your soul plan is to become God?
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 20:34:00 GMT -5
I'd say, in a very general sense, if we're having trouble coming up with good answers, we're probly asking the wrong questions. It's just the dictionary-all-words/ideas-only-point-to-other-words/ideas yawner again. There's never been a question answered by science that didn't result in more questions, and that's simply perfection in action. Limitlessness also applies to the God/science tug-of-war. No matter what explanations the scientists come up with, the diest can always question/posit some godhead prior-to or beyond it. It's just a no-brainer that for any object that can be conceived, one can always speculate about a supernatural creation of that object. As far as the potential for new scientific developments, if one looks to the future for the possibility of an explanation to obsolete current understanding, then, logically, it would follow that the future explanation would be subject to the same sort of obsolescence even further in the future. I still enjoy following popular science, but like anything else, it's worth putting it into perspective. Sure, but some ideas point beyond the words, which is why we call them pointers. As an example of what I was referring to, in our squirrel satsang today, one of the squirrels asked "How can I see myself as one with that tree?" I told him it was the wrong question because it stands on an illusion: It begins with the assumption that the tree and the squirrel are actually separate to begin with and somehow merge or join, and so there can't be an answer to the question because nothing merges or joins. As somebody just said about science, it can't answer the question of how consciousness arose from matter. The question can't be answered because it didn't. When the question is the right question, the answer is already included in the question. Hencely, what is being sought are the right questions.
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2014 20:36:31 GMT -5
You seem to have a problem with pretty much everyone and everything. Truuuuust me, nonduality has no problems with you.
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 28, 2014 20:45:18 GMT -5
Oneness is not a matter of point of view. Noticing the interconnected nature of things may be useful, but is a distorted reflection of oneness in the mind, subject to those mental boundaries. There is a Perception of "what is" free of mental boundaries.
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Post by sunshine on Aug 29, 2014 5:01:21 GMT -5
You seem to have a problem with pretty much everyone and everything. Truuuuust me, nonduality has no problems with you. truuuust me, it is only a four cilinder
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