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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 16:28:42 GMT -5
??..? Checking with your wife that the boat was insured, would be much more conducive to an adult emotional response, than spiraling into thinking you will never be happy again. Perhaps so. BTW Sharon, if you didn't know already, that was a made up scenario in an ongoing discussion about judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 16:31:17 GMT -5
??..? Checking with your wife that the boat was insured, would be much more conducive to an adult emotional response, than spiraling into thinking you will never be happy again. Perhaps so. I get your suggestion that many men identify themselves by what they do, so the boat owner may feel a great loss when the boat sinks. Though really can you see a learning curve in it? Something went not right, for the boat to sink. So the level headed response would be not to descend emotionally into an abyss. Though to regain equilibrium as quickly and solidly as possible. Is the boat replaceable? Would it be better to pursue another career? None of it calls for judgement, unless it was a ridiculous mistake that caused the boat to sink. In which case, failure is the opportunity to start again more intelligently, rears itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 16:32:31 GMT -5
BTW Sharon, if you didn't know already, that was a made up scenario in an ongoing discussion about judgement. Yeah I know. I've given a fuller response just now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 16:53:25 GMT -5
To my way of seeing it that implies knowing how each link in the chain of events will turn out for eternity because no event stands alone. So if you could know how something would turn out in ad infinitum would there ever be a need for an emotional reaction (judgement) to any of it along the way? If so, to what end? (pardon the pun :-) The parable offers a wrong focus as it suggests we shouldn't judge because we don't know if we have the right information, implying that if we did have the right information, a judgment would be appropriate. The basis for releasing judgment is that there is no-one to blame. We had a discussion a while back about the notion that everything is happening as it should, and I took exception to that. Instead, we can say that nobody and nothing is in control of what happens, and so there is nowhere to place blame. As such, we cannot say something should NOT have happened. (Which does not imply that what did happen should have happened) Ultimately, judgment is the idea that something should not have happened. Also, I don't join judgment with emotional reactions. One may mourn the loss of a loved one simply as a consequence of loving in this dualistic world, and yet no-one is to blame, and nothing happened that should not have happened. Feeling is not equivalent to suffering, or to judgment. All sudden deaths hurt like f*ck, though yes I have come to acknowledge that no death can ever be at the wrong time. The most befitting one I lived through, was a good friend who fell down a well in Goa. On the morning of his 40th birthday. He remained there for 3 days, until the glint from his watch was spotted from above. He must have been knocked unconscious during the fall, probably backwards, into the well, as I was told that there was no distress in him when he was lifted out. He was more than healthy enough to have called and shouted for help had he been conscious. I always felt comfort that his body was undisturbed for those 72 hours.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 17:26:17 GMT -5
You ignored my scenario and substituted one in which there is identification with a material object. Your scenario denied the joining of judgement and emotional reaction. I suggested a scenario illustrating how judgement and emotional reaction can indeed be joined. Obviously, people make judgments and have emotional reactions. I just don't tie them together as strongly as you seem to. That's all I was trying to say.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 17:32:30 GMT -5
??..? Checking with your wife that the boat was insured, would be much more conducive to an adult emotional response, than spiraling into thinking you will never be happy again. Perhaps so. Besides, maybe because your boat sank, you didn't go fishing in the loch, which saved you from Nessy.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 18:25:52 GMT -5
Your scenario denied the joining of judgement and emotional reaction. I suggested a scenario illustrating how judgement and emotional reaction can indeed be joined. Obviously, people make judgments and have emotional reactions. I just don't tie them together as strongly as you seem to. That's all I was trying to say. OK, but there didn't seem to be any room for tying them together at all in your statement saying "Also, I don't join judgment with emotional reactions". That's all I was trying to say.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 18:37:55 GMT -5
Besides, maybe because your boat sank, you didn't go fishing in the loch, which saved you from Nessy.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 18:59:08 GMT -5
Obviously, people make judgments and have emotional reactions. I just don't tie them together as strongly as you seem to. That's all I was trying to say. OK, but there didn't seem to be any room for tying them together at all in your statement saying "Also, I don't join judgment with emotional reactions". That's all I was trying to say. You thought I was saying people don't have emotional reactions related to their judgments? Very little else happens on this forum. Your conclusion is absurd.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 19:10:49 GMT -5
OK, but there didn't seem to be any room for tying them together at all in your statement saying "Also, I don't join judgment with emotional reactions". That's all I was trying to say. You thought I was saying people don't have emotional reactions related to their judgments? Very little else happens on this forum. Your conclusion is absurd. It wasn't from this side that the statement that they weren't joined was uttered.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 19:53:27 GMT -5
You thought I was saying people don't have emotional reactions related to their judgments? Very little else happens on this forum. Your conclusion is absurd. It wasn't from this side that the statement that they weren't joined was uttered. They're not 'joined' if by that you mean they are always coincident. Feeling is feeling and judgment is judgment. You can feel joy, wonder and love, as well as sadness and fear, without a judgment as we have been talking about it. Before we forget, this is what I actually said: "Also, I don't join judgment with emotional reactions. One may mourn the loss of a loved one simply as a consequence of loving in this dualistic world, and yet no-one is to blame, and nothing happened that should not have happened. Feeling is not equivalent to suffering, or to judgment." If you want to say that a negative judgment always brings about some kind of feeling, I might agree. But that's not what you said. Your conclusion that I suggested there's no room at all for tying them together is what I called absurd.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 20:07:25 GMT -5
But that's not what you said. What did I say?
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 20:23:02 GMT -5
But that's not what you said. What did I say?
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 10, 2014 20:55:49 GMT -5
You forgot? I'll remind you of my opening statement in this discussion. "Discernment, as I see it, is pure seeing, witnessing, and therefore is dispassionate. It's possible to watch your house burn down and be free of any judgement about it. Judgement, again as I see, is when emotion, especially negative emotion, is added to the seeing.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2014 22:09:51 GMT -5
You forgot? I'll remind you of my opening statement in this discussion. "Discernment, as I see it, is pure seeing, witnessing, and therefore is dispassionate. It's possible to watch your house burn down and be free of any judgement about it. Judgement, again as I see, is when emotion, especially negative emotion, is added to the seeing. That's fine.
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