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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2014 13:13:57 GMT -5
That, in itself, is a good discovery, but don't let it make you cynical. It's a cliche, but the truth is within. There IS something to discover. Ive heard it many times and I wish that I could make that discovery. But all I find within are thoughts ad infinitum. Thoughts about problems, like the problem of evil or the problem of beauty. And judgments against myself and others. As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of psychics. But when I was a bit more vulnerable I went to one who made 2 predictions that came true, and the third was that I would meet a lady that would help me be less judgmental. Why is non-judgment an imperative in the spiritual life? You can take judgment out of the spiritual realm entirely and just look at it as a matter of your own personal peace of mind. It serves kind of a twisted purpose for mind, but in the end it's only destructive to everyone involved. (Not talking about discernment, of course) Judgment, in the way we're talking about it, and the realization of oneness, cannot co-exist. This is a powerful source of peace of mind.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2014 13:17:47 GMT -5
I don't. But years of sifting through various philosophies, both eastern and western, hasn't brought me nearer to an absolute. I'm more confused than anything. That, in itself, is a good discovery, but don't let it make you cynical. It's a cliche, but the truth is within. There IS something to discover. Definitely!
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2014 13:22:06 GMT -5
Would it be fair to say that Enigma and Reefs are together in the fact that there are no longer any life mysteries? Hey Alfio, E &R did not say that there are no longer any life mysteries. They only said that it is possible to know things that are self evident. This kind of knowing is not of the mind. The biblical verse, "Be still and know...." is pointing to this kind of direct knowing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 13:45:23 GMT -5
I don't. But years of sifting through various philosophies, both eastern and western, hasn't brought me nearer to an absolute. I'm more confused than anything. That, in itself, is a good discovery, but don't let it make you cynical. It's a cliche, but the truth is within. There IS something to discover. That is the uncomfortable truth. Seeking truth is as DJ describes, futile. And yet.
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2014 13:55:30 GMT -5
Would it be fair to say that Enigma and Reefs are together in the fact that there are no longer any life mysteries? Hey Alfio, E &R did not say that there are no longer any life mysteries. They only said that it is possible to know things that are self evident. This kind of knowing is not of the mind. The biblical verse, "Be still and know...." is pointing to this kind of direct knowing. Right. Life is full of mysteries, and just because they are of the mind doesn't make them less fascinating and wondrous and beautiful. That mind is part of creation unfolding. There's no such thing as having all the answers. It's more like putting the questions in their proper perspective so that we stop tormenting ourselves.
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2014 14:28:45 GMT -5
That, in itself, is a good discovery, but don't let it make you cynical. It's a cliche, but the truth is within. There IS something to discover. That is the uncomfortable truth. Seeking truth is as DJ describes, futile. And yet. Maybe in this sense it is always unexpected, unimaginable. It is futile in the sense that the seeker seeks from within the self delusion of a separate self wanting to attain something or escape something, or an imaginative mind trying to make sense of his own imagination. And so the imaginary self can grasp only imaginings to complete his self story, and none of it has any solidity. The truth is not personal, and so it cannot be what the person is looking for.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2014 21:48:04 GMT -5
Hey Alfio, E &R did not say that there are no longer any life mysteries. They only said that it is possible to know things that are self evident. This kind of knowing is not of the mind. The biblical verse, "Be still and know...." is pointing to this kind of direct knowing. Right. Life is full of mysteries, and just because they are of the mind doesn't make them less fascinating and wondrous and beautiful. That mind is part of creation unfolding. There's no such thing as having all the answers. It's more like putting the questions in their proper perspective so that we stop tormenting ourselves. Never found the questions to be a torment. They were fun!
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2014 21:52:08 GMT -5
That, in itself, is a good discovery, but don't let it make you cynical. It's a cliche, but the truth is within. There IS something to discover. Ive heard it many times and I wish that I could make that discovery. But all I find within are thoughts ad infinitum. Thoughts about problems, like the problem of evil or the problem of beauty. And judgments against myself and others. As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of psychics. But when I was a bit more vulnerable I went to one who made 2 predictions that came true, and the third was that I would meet a lady that would help me be less judgmental. Why is non-judgment an imperative in the spiritual life? You might try looking to see what judgement is all about yourself by making a study of it as it arises. Pay attention when you see a judgment emerging and ask, is it possible to maintain the notion of the judgment absent an attachment to form? Watch them as they happen and reflect and challenge yourself with the question: without "I am ___", does this judgment still have a basis?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 1:23:44 GMT -5
Would it be fair to say that Enigma and Reefs are together in the fact that there are no longer any life mysteries? Hey Alfio, E &R did not say that there are no longer any life mysteries. They only said that it is possible to know things that are self evident. This kind of knowing is not of the mind. The biblical verse, "Be still and know...." is pointing to this kind of direct knowing. if a self is evident (apart from a thought self) direct knowledge is obtained by communion, as in the recognition of Self being Life?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 1:29:09 GMT -5
is it possible to know anything? In regards to seeking, how will you know or even recognise for that matter, that which has been thought to be true yet still remains a mystery? Some people have an internal "compass" that sometimes draws them to the truth, at any rate, recognizes certain aspects of truth when they encounter it. All concepts are at least once removed from reality, but if truth encountered is acted upon, the truth acts upon us, the map leads into the territory. Not easy but possible. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Theory first (concept), test and verify. Maybe the most difficult thing, not to be satisfied by imagination, maya. sdp If we must seek, seek in the direction ones intuition arrives from... thus the heartland is entered.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2014 5:28:46 GMT -5
I don't. But years of sifting through various philosophies, both eastern and western, hasn't brought me nearer to an absolute. I'm more confused than anything. You are fortunate, many people believe they have 'the answers'.. at least you can still be open, if you choose to be..
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Post by zendancer on Jul 5, 2014 6:29:06 GMT -5
I don't. But years of sifting through various philosophies, both eastern and western, hasn't brought me nearer to an absolute. I'm more confused than anything. D: I tried the same thing, and had exactly the same result--ten years of western philosophy and nine years of eastern philosophy along with endless thought, and I never got one step closer to the truth. That's because philosophy and thought are always one step removed from the truth. The irony is that what you ARE IS the truth searching for Itself using imagination, and that's the one way it can't be found. If you will leave imagination behind (at least for a while), and spend some time attending (looking, listening, etc), then you will find what you're looking for. The answers that will arise will collapse the questions, and that will put the mind at rest because mind will then understand its own limitations and its proper place in the overall scheme of things. The title of Gary Weber's book, "Happiness Beyond Thought," points in the right direction. The goal isn't to find and then get attached to answers; it is to find what is beyond the mind, discover the proper function of mind, and thereby become free of the mind (which puts the mind at rest). To a philosopher or intellectual it will feel a bit silly (almost like wasting time) to spend time feeling the breath, or looking at clouds in the sky, or tasting coffee, or watching birds in the parking lot at McDonalds eating scraps of food, but these activities are more likely to trigger realization about what's going on than any amount of thinking. The reason that bird-watching, fishing, mountain-climbing, and hunting are so pleasurable for so many people is that these kinds of activities bring them into a TEMPORARY state of presence, or beingness, free of the mind's usual self-referential reflectiveness. Contemplation, meditation, attending---these are the activities that will lead to freedom, peace, and stillness of mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 8:57:15 GMT -5
Ive heard it many times and I wish that I could make that discovery. But all I find within are thoughts ad infinitum. Thoughts about problems, like the problem of evil or the problem of beauty. And judgments against myself and others. As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of psychics. But when I was a bit more vulnerable I went to one who made 2 predictions that came true, and the third was that I would meet a lady that would help me be less judgmental. Why is non-judgment an imperative in the spiritual life? You can take judgment out of the spiritual realm entirely and just look at it as a matter of your own personal peace of mind. It serves kind of a twisted purpose for mind, but in the end it's only destructive to everyone involved. (Not talking about discernment, of course) Judgment, in the way we're talking about it, and the realization of oneness, cannot co-exist. This is a powerful source of peace of mind. That's one of the trickiest distinctions I am trying to make: distinguishing discernment from judgment. There seems to be two directives. One is to be critical of myself and others, to be wary of faults and errors. The other is to live and let live, be positive and non-judgmental.
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Post by enigma on Jul 9, 2014 10:35:42 GMT -5
You can take judgment out of the spiritual realm entirely and just look at it as a matter of your own personal peace of mind. It serves kind of a twisted purpose for mind, but in the end it's only destructive to everyone involved. (Not talking about discernment, of course) Judgment, in the way we're talking about it, and the realization of oneness, cannot co-exist. This is a powerful source of peace of mind. That's one of the trickiest distinctions I am trying to make: distinguishing discernment from judgment. There seems to be two directives. One is to be critical of myself and others, to be wary of faults and errors. The other is to live and let live, be positive and non-judgmental. Yes, it's very tricky if one is judging the distinction rather than discerning it. Errors are discerned, faults are judgments. The attempt to be positive and non-judgmental is already a judgment placed on oneself that one is being too negative and judgmental. As such, one cannot approach that distinction as a means of behavior modification. One cannot say, 'I am being too judgmental and need to learn to discern'. This is also why one who is viewing others through judgment cannot discern when others are viewing through discernment. It's not just tricky, it's impossible. One must lose one's ability to judge, and only then can the distinction between judgment and discernment be discerned rather than judged. This loss is a consequence of the realization of non-volition and non-separation, and may have such a profound effect on one's ability to place blame and cultivate retribution that there may be a period of mourning for that loss.
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Post by topology on Jul 9, 2014 11:48:31 GMT -5
You can take judgment out of the spiritual realm entirely and just look at it as a matter of your own personal peace of mind. It serves kind of a twisted purpose for mind, but in the end it's only destructive to everyone involved. (Not talking about discernment, of course) Judgment, in the way we're talking about it, and the realization of oneness, cannot co-exist. This is a powerful source of peace of mind. That's one of the trickiest distinctions I am trying to make: distinguishing discernment from judgment. There seems to be two directives. One is to be critical of myself and others, to be wary of faults and errors. The other is to live and let live, be positive and non-judgmental. The distinction that I find to be the most clear is that discernment is to investigate the cause-effect of actions (nature of objects) per situation, whereas judgment is a moral view point on the "propriety" of an action or (value of an object) in all contexts based on its effects in a few contexts. For example: Knowing that smoking a significant amount of pot can impair functionality, it is discerned that operating heavy machinery while stoned poses an increased risk in accidents occurring. The moral judgment comes in when one says "You should not operate heavy machinery while stoned." The moral judgment is furthered when conclusions about the nature of a person and their "worth" is extrapolated from the fact that they would operate heavy machinery while stoned. It could be discerned in a specific context that the only person around capable of operating the machinery is someone who is stoned, and that the machinery must be operated or else some other negative result might be the case (someone dies). Here discernment would act against the moral judgment. Discernment is seeing what the nature of something is. Judgment is placing a value on that nature towards fulfilling some goal or purpose. Judgments are not bad. Its a question of what your values are. It's a matter of discernment to know that placing babies in a dryer and then turning the dryer on will damage them severely if not kill them over time. the "judgment" cast on the person who would do such a thing, knowingly and intentionally, seems appropriate. I can't imagine a context where it could be discerned that this was an appropriate course of action. Judgment seems to be something along the lines of "You SHOULD have known better" and the consequences of the judgment occurring go further than what a discerned appropriate response would be. The discerned response to a mistake is typically education/rehabilitation/training. "Go forth and Sin no more." Or if such is not possible, then to find a way of preventing the person/entity from being able to perform the action in contexts which yield negative results. Discernment it me is about finding an appropriate (holistic) response, whereas judgment is the pendulum swinging the other way and seeking retribution in the near term without taking into account the long-term consequences of said retribution.
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