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Jul 13, 2014 5:47:52 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 13, 2014 5:47:52 GMT -5
Yes, experiences are extremely visceral, and the experiences that are the most dramatic and the most visceral are the ones we call "kensho" or "cosmic-consciousness experiences" where there is a direct seeing into the nature of what we are coupled with a direct illumination and massive change in brain functioning. These are very woo woo and very mind-blowing, literally. Experiences that are important in the realm of the non-dual involve the actual rather than the imaginary. If you pick up a rock and look at it, that is different than imagining picking up a rock and looking at it. What you see with your eyes is "what is" if thought is absent; what you imagine is imaginary. You can have either experiences involving "what is" in the absence of ideas or experiences involving ideas. What we're talking about regarding non-duality are experiences that do NOT involve ideas. Ideas, however, will change as a result of the mind becoming informed by either direct experiences or realizations. Realizations are not intellectual because no ideas are being projected or manipulated. If you thought you saw a snake and suddenly realized that what you thought was a snake was really a rope, the truth would become obvious, but not in as dramatic a way as if the entire universe disintegrated or turned inside out. Did the universe disintegrate upon your realization? The universe doesn't disintegrate, the experiencer's understanding of it does, though.. like the well-worn snake/rope illusion, the experiencer 'realizes' what is actually happening rather than what they 'think' is happening.. whether it's a slow evolving of the experiencer's understanding or a sudden burst of clarity, the effect is the same.. at some point, there is an 'ah ha' shift in the experiencer's awareness that affects each experiencer differently, but which reveals the same information..
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Jul 13, 2014 6:51:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 6:51:32 GMT -5
Nice. Does the fact that scratching out the term "nondual" in an otherwise shared understanding perhaps put discussions involving the term "nondual" in a better light for you? IOW, perhaps focus on the discussion around the term rather than let the discussion be hijacked by your associations of the term. No, it doesn't put it in a better light for me, it neutralizes an opportunity for conflict, taking out the ideological component.. i didn't replace the scratched-out words with more/different ideology, the absence of opinion/belief/ideology clears-up much of the perceived distortion, and reveals clarity.. the absence of the ideological component in the post you referenced is a description of what is happening that is consistent with the happening, and a much more open and less contentious way of communicating with a broad spectrum of people without distorting or diluting the description with opinion/ideology.. it puts it a 'better light' for everybody.. I hope you realize that what you term an opportunity for conflict, which was neutralized by you, was a potential conflict that you did not initiate.
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Jul 13, 2014 7:04:43 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 13, 2014 7:04:43 GMT -5
Did the universe disintegrate upon your realization? The universe doesn't disintegrate, the experiencer's understanding of it does, though.. like the well-worn snake/rope illusion, the experiencer 'realizes' what is actually happening rather than what they 'think' is happening.. whether it's a slow evolving of the experiencer's understanding or a sudden burst of clarity, the effect is the same.. at some point, there is an 'ah ha' shift in the experiencer's awareness that affects each experiencer differently, but which reveals the same information.. Tzu: in this post you are needlessly and incorrectly speculating based upon your own personal experiences and ideas about reality. For me, the universe most definitely disintegrated on a particular day--it perceptually came apart---, and the body/mind found itself in a new and startlingly different world unlike anything that could have been imagined. There was no "ah ha" shift because selfhood had also disappeared, and there was no knowing what was happening or even to whom it was happening. This is a class of experiences that is not common, so a description of this kind of experience will only be fully understood by other people who have had a similar experience. In my case I came back to "normal" after several days; Tolle didn't come back to "normal" for more than a year or so. In cases like this, understanding only comes much later as the mind gradually develops a conceptual framework that allows the experience to be put into a comprehensible context.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:27:44 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 13, 2014 17:27:44 GMT -5
The universe doesn't disintegrate, the experiencer's understanding of it does, though.. like the well-worn snake/rope illusion, the experiencer 'realizes' what is actually happening rather than what they 'think' is happening.. whether it's a slow evolving of the experiencer's understanding or a sudden burst of clarity, the effect is the same.. at some point, there is an 'ah ha' shift in the experiencer's awareness that affects each experiencer differently, but which reveals the same information.. Tzu: in this post you are needlessly and incorrectly speculating based upon your own personal experiences and ideas about reality. For me, the universe most definitely disintegrated on a particular day--it perceptually came apart---, and the body/mind found itself in a new and startlingly different world unlike anything that could have been imagined. There was no "ah ha" shift because selfhood had also disappeared, and there was no knowing what was happening or even to whom it was happening. This is a class of experiences that is not common, so a description of this kind of experience will only be fully understood by other people who have had a similar experience. In my case I came back to "normal" after several days; Tolle didn't come back to "normal" for more than a year or so. In cases like this, understanding only comes much later as the mind gradually develops a conceptual framework that allows the experience to be put into a comprehensible context. My experience was less disruptive than yours though no less a discontinuity in world view. More gentle and spread out over a longer period, though with a similar measure of intense surprise. I'd known for years leading up to it that the world simply wasn't as it appears, and while that knowledge was primarily intellectual, there were other components. What I didn't know until it happened was just how radically different the world is than what I'd taken it for. So I think back now to the day in Barnes&Noble when I bought "The Power of Now". I imagine someone there telling me that reading it would drastically change my life and result in a new interest of the volume and intensity that developed ... well, to say that I wouldn't have believed them is a drastic understatement.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:07:42 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 13, 2014 20:07:42 GMT -5
The universe doesn't disintegrate, the experiencer's understanding of it does, though.. like the well-worn snake/rope illusion, the experiencer 'realizes' what is actually happening rather than what they 'think' is happening.. whether it's a slow evolving of the experiencer's understanding or a sudden burst of clarity, the effect is the same.. at some point, there is an 'ah ha' shift in the experiencer's awareness that affects each experiencer differently, but which reveals the same information.. Tzu: in this post you are needlessly and incorrectly speculating based upon your own personal experiences and ideas about reality. For me, the universe most definitely disintegrated on a particular day-- it perceptually came apart---, and the body/mind found itself in a new and startlingly different world unlike anything that could have been imagined. There was no "ah ha" shift because selfhood had also disappeared, and there was no knowing what was happening or even to whom it was happening. This is a class of experiences that is not common, so a description of this kind of experience will only be fully understood by other people who have had a similar experience. In my case I came back to "normal" after several days; Tolle didn't come back to "normal" for more than a year or so. In cases like this, understanding only comes much later as the mind gradually develops a conceptual framework that allows the experience to be put into a comprehensible context. Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"?
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Jul 13, 2014 22:17:11 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 22:17:11 GMT -5
Tzu: in this post you are needlessly and incorrectly speculating based upon your own personal experiences and ideas about reality. For me, the universe most definitely disintegrated on a particular day-- it perceptually came apart---, and the body/mind found itself in a new and startlingly different world unlike anything that could have been imagined. There was no "ah ha" shift because selfhood had also disappeared, and there was no knowing what was happening or even to whom it was happening. This is a class of experiences that is not common, so a description of this kind of experience will only be fully understood by other people who have had a similar experience. In my case I came back to "normal" after several days; Tolle didn't come back to "normal" for more than a year or so. In cases like this, understanding only comes much later as the mind gradually develops a conceptual framework that allows the experience to be put into a comprehensible context. Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? 'Coming back to Normal' simply shows that the person prefers past~tense living rather than present~moment living.(eternal) Past~tense always reigns supreme over the self with its up-to-date current collection of intellectual~knowledge which it uses (in an effort) to show others that it has got-it-together when in reality it is just that same old ghost that rises up and then settles down: That Moving Center. When an individual experiences momentary~high~mindedness (available to all) they will inevitably awaken to the fact that they are still in their mind separate from others. Creative Intelligence lives life in the moment. It's the individual sense of a self (that which is trying to Work things-out) which keeps one out of the moment and stuck fast in the realm of duality. (thinker and thought) Life is for the Living. Be Life.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:47:55 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 13, 2014 22:47:55 GMT -5
Tzu: in this post you are needlessly and incorrectly speculating based upon your own personal experiences and ideas about reality. For me, the universe most definitely disintegrated on a particular day-- it perceptually came apart---, and the body/mind found itself in a new and startlingly different world unlike anything that could have been imagined. There was no "ah ha" shift because selfhood had also disappeared, and there was no knowing what was happening or even to whom it was happening. This is a class of experiences that is not common, so a description of this kind of experience will only be fully understood by other people who have had a similar experience. In my case I came back to "normal" after several days; Tolle didn't come back to "normal" for more than a year or so. In cases like this, understanding only comes much later as the mind gradually develops a conceptual framework that allows the experience to be put into a comprehensible context. Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? I can only theorize about this, but I suspect that it was because old habits of mind --reflective thinking--returned. In Tolle's case, he claims that 80% of his thinking stopped forever, but in my case thinking came back with a vengeance, and my unity with "what is" diminished proportionately as the thinking came back. The experience resulted in numerous realizations and answers to several important existential questions, but it raised a thousand new questions. Ha ha. It would be many more years before mind became informed about what had happened and what was going on, understood its proper function, relaxed, and became subservient. *smile*
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Jul 13, 2014 23:03:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 23:03:35 GMT -5
Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? I can only theorize about this, but I suspect that it was because old habits of mind --reflective thinking--returned. In Tolle's case, he claims that 80% of his thinking stopped forever, but in my case thinking came back with a vengeance, and my unity with "what is" diminished proportionately as the thinking came back. The experience resulted in numerous realizations and answers to several important existential questions, but it raised a thousand new questions. Ha ha. It would be many more years before mind became informed about what had happened and what was going on, understood its proper function, relaxed, and became subservient. *smile* making love settles the mind. How's your relationship going ZD?
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Jul 13, 2014 23:08:59 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 13, 2014 23:08:59 GMT -5
Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? 'Coming back to Normal' simply shows that the person prefers past~tense living rather than present~moment living.(eternal) Past~tense always reigns supreme over the self with its up-to-date current collection of intellectual~knowledge which it uses (in an effort) to show others that it has got-it-together when in reality it is just that same old ghost that rises up and then settles down: That Moving Center. When an individual experiences momentary~high~mindedness (available to all) they will inevitably awaken to the fact that they are still in their mind separate from others. Creative Intelligence lives life in the moment. It's the individual sense of a self (that which is trying to Work things-out) which keeps one out of the moment and stuck fast in the realm of duality. (thinker and thought) Life is for the Living. Be Life. Agreed, but sometimes it takes a while to see that. *smile*
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Jul 13, 2014 23:14:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 23:14:38 GMT -5
'Coming back to Normal' simply shows that the person prefers past~tense living rather than present~moment living.(eternal) Past~tense always reigns supreme over the self with its up-to-date current collection of intellectual~knowledge which it uses (in an effort) to show others that it has got-it-together when in reality it is just that same old ghost that rises up and then settles down: That Moving Center. When an individual experiences momentary~high~mindedness (available to all) they will inevitably awaken to the fact that they are still in their mind separate from others. Creative Intelligence lives life in the moment. It's the individual sense of a self (that which is trying to Work things-out) which keeps one out of the moment and stuck fast in the realm of duality. (thinker and thought) Life is for the Living. Be Life. Agreed, but sometimes it takes a while to see that. *smile* When we use our mind to escape reality, or to work things out we can forget we are in the Mental department, in fact, most folk are unaware they're doing this within their minds so nothing to smile about-true. Trying is only half of the way. Something happens to the mental center when we give it less importance. If we choose stay Home, mind will take up residence where it sets out from each morning, having been passed down by our parents.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:35:12 GMT -5
Post by silence on Jul 13, 2014 23:35:12 GMT -5
Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? I can only theorize about this, but I suspect that it was because old habits of mind --reflective thinking--returned. In Tolle's case, he claims that 80% of his thinking stopped forever, but in my case thinking came back with a vengeance, and my unity with "what is" diminished proportionately as the thinking came back. The experience resulted in numerous realizations and answers to several important existential questions, but it raised a thousand new questions. Ha ha. It would be many more years before mind became informed about what had happened and what was going on, understood its proper function, relaxed, and became subservient. *smile* If you had sought help you would have likely been told that you had a psychotic break.
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Jul 14, 2014 5:18:28 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 14, 2014 5:18:28 GMT -5
Well, you could be right, but.. on that day when you believe that the universe 'came apart', it was still there for the vast majority of experiencers.. it might not be an 'ah ha' shift, it might be any other expression that signifies a realization that what the experiencer 'thinks' is happening is not what is actually happening.. the issue many consciousness explorers face is in collapse of prior mental structures arrives at empty mind/stillness, the inclination to replace emptiness with more structure.. Why did you "come back to normal"? 'Coming back to Normal' simply shows that the person prefers past~tense living rather than present~moment living.(eternal) Past~tense always reigns supreme over the self with its up-to-date current collection of intellectual~knowledge which it uses (in an effort) to show others that it has got-it-together when in reality it is just that same old ghost that rises up and then settles down: That Moving Center. When an individual experiences momentary~high~mindedness (available to all) they will inevitably awaken to the fact that they are still in their mind separate from others. Creative Intelligence lives life in the moment. It's the individual sense of a self (that which is trying to Work things-out) which keeps one out of the moment and stuck fast in the realm of duality. (thinker and thought) Life is for the Living. Be Life. Self/no-self.. thinker/thought.. isness/is-notness.. one/many.. part/whole.. duality/non-duality these are descriptions of experiencable present moment happenings, depending on where the experiencer's attention is placed.. playing one against the other, as if in the choosing to hold one and reject the other the chooser has improved their situation, what happens (see this forum) is conflict.. by accepting both/and rather than either/or, conflict is resolved, and.. by letting go of those stories altogether experiencers can explore what is actually happening without the fierce conflicts over who's right/wrong..
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Jul 14, 2014 5:37:47 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 14, 2014 5:37:47 GMT -5
I can only theorize about this, but I suspect that it was because old habits of mind --reflective thinking--returned. In Tolle's case, he claims that 80% of his thinking stopped forever, but in my case thinking came back with a vengeance, and my unity with "what is" diminished proportionately as the thinking came back. The experience resulted in numerous realizations and answers to several important existential questions, but it raised a thousand new questions. Ha ha. It would be many more years before mind became informed about what had happened and what was going on, understood its proper function, relaxed, and became subservient. *smile* If you had sought help you would have likely been told that you had a psychotic break. That's probably correct, but there was no chance of my seeking help as it was the most powerful and most joyous experience of my life. Nothing can compare with the kind of bliss that accompanies a total loss of selfhood and intellection as pure presence prevails. Afterwards, ironically, I described the experience to people as a kind of "good" psychotic event until a conversation that I had with Helen Courtois. She had had the same thing happen to her as a nineteen-year old (described in her book "An Experience of Enlightenment"), but she violently objected to the use of the word "psychosis" as applicable. In her case, like Tolle, the experience had led to total freedom and bliss that lasted for many years, and she thought that the word "psychosis" was a terrible word for describing an enlightened perspective, whether the duration was short term or long term. Courtois's story is remarkable because for all practical purposes she lived a totally enlightened life for many years. She gave up trying to tell people what had happened to her (because no one understood), and she eventually settled down to a rather conventional life lived in presence and free of the mind, and she assumed that she had received a special kind of vision that other people didn't have. She got married, had kids, and didn't lose her freedom and equanimity until she returned to graduate school and got back into some heavy reflective thought. Ha ha, that thinking stuff can be dangerous! It can drag a person out of nirvana and back to the dead world that most people inhabit. As selfhood returned and presence evaporated, she set out on a second search to find out how she had gained and then later lost paradise. When I met Courtois, she hadn't yet regained her previous freedom (from the mind), and I did not yet understand the one thing that she needed to be told that might have led her to a realization. Her book is fascinating, but it's unfortunately now out of print. If I owned the rights to the book, I'd love to re-publish it and include an afterword.
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Jul 14, 2014 10:15:13 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 14, 2014 10:15:13 GMT -5
If you had sought help you would have likely been told that you had a psychotic break. That's probably correct, but there was no chance of my seeking help as it was the most powerful and most joyous experience of my life. Nothing can compare with the kind of bliss that accompanies a total loss of selfhood and intellection as pure presence prevails. Afterwards, ironically, I described the experience to people as a kind of "good" psychotic event until a conversation that I had with Helen Courtois. She had had the same thing happen to her as a nineteen-year old (described in her book "An Experience of Enlightenment"), but she violently objected to the use of the word "psychosis" as applicable. In her case, like Tolle, the experience had led to total freedom and bliss that lasted for many years, and she thought that the word "psychosis" was a terrible word for describing an enlightened perspective, whether the duration was short term or long term. Courtois's story is remarkable because for all practical purposes she lived a totally enlightened life for many years. She gave up trying to tell people what had happened to her (because no one understood), and she eventually settled down to a rather conventional life lived in presence and free of the mind, and she assumed that she had received a special kind of vision that other people didn't have. She got married, had kids, and didn't lose her freedom and equanimity until she returned to graduate school and got back into some heavy reflective thought. Ha ha, that thinking stuff can be dangerous! It can drag a person out of nirvana and back to the dead world that most people inhabit. As selfhood returned and presence evaporated, she set out on a second search to find out how she had gained and then later lost paradise. When I met Courtois, she hadn't yet regained her previous freedom (from the mind), and I did not yet understand the one thing that she needed to be told that might have led her to a realization. Her book is fascinating, but it's unfortunately now out of print. If I owned the rights to the book, I'd love to re-publish it and include an afterword. The book is reprinted and contained in full in The Hazy Moon of Enlightenment by Taizan Maezumi and Bernie Glassman (with about 12 pages by Hakuun Yasutani), 2007.
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Jul 14, 2014 12:09:09 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 14, 2014 12:09:09 GMT -5
That's probably correct, but there was no chance of my seeking help as it was the most powerful and most joyous experience of my life. Nothing can compare with the kind of bliss that accompanies a total loss of selfhood and intellection as pure presence prevails. Afterwards, ironically, I described the experience to people as a kind of "good" psychotic event until a conversation that I had with Helen Courtois. She had had the same thing happen to her as a nineteen-year old (described in her book "An Experience of Enlightenment"), but she violently objected to the use of the word "psychosis" as applicable. In her case, like Tolle, the experience had led to total freedom and bliss that lasted for many years, and she thought that the word "psychosis" was a terrible word for describing an enlightened perspective, whether the duration was short term or long term. Courtois's story is remarkable because for all practical purposes she lived a totally enlightened life for many years. She gave up trying to tell people what had happened to her (because no one understood), and she eventually settled down to a rather conventional life lived in presence and free of the mind, and she assumed that she had received a special kind of vision that other people didn't have. She got married, had kids, and didn't lose her freedom and equanimity until she returned to graduate school and got back into some heavy reflective thought. Ha ha, that thinking stuff can be dangerous! It can drag a person out of nirvana and back to the dead world that most people inhabit. As selfhood returned and presence evaporated, she set out on a second search to find out how she had gained and then later lost paradise. When I met Courtois, she hadn't yet regained her previous freedom (from the mind), and I did not yet understand the one thing that she needed to be told that might have led her to a realization. Her book is fascinating, but it's unfortunately now out of print. If I owned the rights to the book, I'd love to re-publish it and include an afterword. The book is reprinted and contained in full in The Hazy Moon of Enlightenment by Taizan Maezumi and Bernie Glassman (with about 12 pages by Hakuun Yasutani), 2007. SDP: Many thanks! I own an early version of "Hazy Moon.." but to my memory that version didn't mention Ms. Coutois. I'll order a copy of the 2007 book and compare that with the old copy that's stored somewhere in my library. I'll be interested in what Yasutani had to say about her kensho experience and his understanding of her understanding at the time he first met her. He wrote the introduction to her book, but it was clear (from talking to her on the phone for several years) that although she had had a powerful kensho experience that freed her from the mind, she had never had a satori realization. The last time I talked to her before her death she was still under the illusion that she was a person who had had an enlightenment experience and who had lived an enlightened life for several years. She had not yet had the realization that would have freed her from that illusion. IOW, she still thought that she was a person named Helen Courtois who had had various kinds of experiences!
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