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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:27:03 GMT -5
. Don't fret. He is always Here, even when he thinks he is not. This was also a very good answer.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:28:01 GMT -5
What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now? Understand? Now.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:29:22 GMT -5
True dat. I've never experienced my absence. Nor has anyone else. There is something you regularly do not experience the (non)absence of every day, a significant part of every day (if I gave a timeframe, you wouldn't believe me). zd refers to it often enough that I figured someone would get it from recalling his past posts, and the reason that no one has posted it, in one or two words, is significant (if/when someone names it, I will confirm, but ...........). laughter, very close without being specific, likewise earnest, rupa all but........... sdp ...bumped...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:31:38 GMT -5
There is something you regularly do not experience the absence of every day, a significant part of every day. zd refers to it often enough that I figured someone would get it from recalling his past posts, and the reason that no one has posted it, in one or two words, is significant (if/when someone names it, I will confirm, but ...........). laughter, very close without being specific, likewise earnest, rupa all but........... sdp We've already gone a couple of rounds with Rupa's idea that we're not aware of the absence of awareness. We're not aware of it, when we're not aware of it.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:34:13 GMT -5
What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now? (** muttley snicker **)Seriously, I was serious. See now?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2023 19:35:21 GMT -5
There is an answer to the question, but if I told you , you wouldn't believe me. sdp
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 4:54:27 GMT -5
When I see something like this I immediately feel inclined to throw a spanner in the works and mess with it to get a discussion going. 😃
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 4:59:48 GMT -5
So let's get this straight. You want me to attend to the elephant because this elephant is right in my face right now and there's nothing more actual than that, but having said that you don't want me to think, this is a big elephant? You want me to be minus any thoughts about the elephant I'm actually attending to. Good God!
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2023 7:29:37 GMT -5
So let's get this straight. You want me to attend to the elephant because this elephant is right in my face right now and there's nothing more actual than that, but having said that you don't want me to think, this is a big elephant? You want me to be minus any thoughts about the elephant I'm actually attending to. Good God!
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2023 8:58:40 GMT -5
So let's get this straight. You want me to attend to the elephant because this elephant is right in my face right now and there's nothing more actual than that, but having said that you don't want me to think, this is a big elephant? You want me to be minus any thoughts about the elephant I'm actually attending to. Good God! For some of us, that thought would not be necessary. The incomprehensible intelligence that manifests through humans does not need to think (in the form of linear verbal conscious mind talk) in order to appropriately react. In most cases the body will respond much faster than thinking can occur. If we accidentally touch a hot stovetop, do any thoughts occur prior to yanking our hand away? If, however, thought is defined as "subconscious mental processing," which would be a synonym for "body knowing," then the word "thought" might apply. This is why jet pilots are trained in simulators, so that they can react to emergencies without having to think about what's happening (which is quite slow).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 9:10:34 GMT -5
So let's get this straight. You want me to attend to the elephant because this elephant is right in my face right now and there's nothing more actual than that, but having said that you don't want me to think, this is a big elephant? You want me to be minus any thoughts about the elephant I'm actually attending to. Good God! For some of us, that thought would not be necessary. The incomprehensible intelligence that manifests through humans does not need to think (in the form of linear verbal conscious mind talk) in order to appropriately react. In most cases the body will respond much faster than thinking can occur. If we accidentally touch a hot stovetop, do any thoughts occur prior to yanking our hand away? If, however, thought is defined as "subconscious mental processing," which would be a synonym for "body knowing," then the word "thought" might apply. This is why jet pilots are trained in simulators, so that they can react to emergencies without having to think about what's happening (which is quite slow). I don't disagree with any of that. I was being a bit intentionally mischievous. 😃 But I was interested to drill down forensically into what it means to: Attend to the actual without or minus thoughts. Firstly we would have to explain what it means to attend to the actual and secondly what exactly the actual is. We don't have to define what minus thoughts or without thoughts means. I think that's obvious. It would also be important to explain whether attending to the actual results in no thoughts or whether no thoughts is a precondition before we even attend to the actual.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2023 9:40:31 GMT -5
For some of us, that thought would not be necessary. The incomprehensible intelligence that manifests through humans does not need to think (in the form of linear verbal conscious mind talk) in order to appropriately react. In most cases the body will respond much faster than thinking can occur. If we accidentally touch a hot stovetop, do any thoughts occur prior to yanking our hand away? If, however, thought is defined as "subconscious mental processing," which would be a synonym for "body knowing," then the word "thought" might apply. This is why jet pilots are trained in simulators, so that they can react to emergencies without having to think about what's happening (which is quite slow). I don't disagree with any of that. I was being a bit intentionally mischievous. 😃 But I was interested to drill down forensically into what it means to: Attend to the actual without or minus thoughts. Firstly we would have to explain what it means to attend to the actual and secondly what exactly the actual is. We don't have to define what minus thoughts or without thoughts means. I think that's obvious. It would also be important to explain whether attending to the actual results in no thoughts or whether no thoughts is a precondition before we even attend to the actual. Good questions! I can only relate "my" own experience. As "I" shifted attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what could be seen, heard, felt, etc without labeling or interpreting that input via the intellect) again and again, mind-talk slowed down, and eventually the mind became far more silent than in the past. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was at least two years of pretty regular meditation (in many different forms) before there could be awareness of mental silence without the mind jumping in and saying "Oh, the mind has become silent." Haha! Today, mind talk can totally cease at any time by simply shifting attention away from thoughts to whatever is happening in the present moment. Of course, now it no longer matters whether there is mind talk or silence because there is the understanding that there is no "me" doing anything. I use the word "actual" to point to "what is" as it is. Phrases that come to mind in reference to this are "what you see is what you get" and "This is It." Abstract thoughts about real versus unreal, and most other abstract thoughts along that line do not even arise. Life is extremely simple, direct, matter-of-fact, and down-to-earth, and the only times I think about ND stuff is on forums like this or when interacting with people interested in existential issues and what the phrase "Self-realization" points to.
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2023 12:29:41 GMT -5
For some of us, that thought would not be necessary. The incomprehensible intelligence that manifests through humans does not need to think (in the form of linear verbal conscious mind talk) in order to appropriately react. In most cases the body will respond much faster than thinking can occur. If we accidentally touch a hot stovetop, do any thoughts occur prior to yanking our hand away? If, however, thought is defined as "subconscious mental processing," which would be a synonym for "body knowing," then the word "thought" might apply. This is why jet pilots are trained in simulators, so that they can react to emergencies without having to think about what's happening (which is quite slow). I don't disagree with any of that. I was being a bit intentionally mischievous. 😃 But I was interested to drill down forensically into what it means to: Attend to the actual without or minus thoughts. Firstly we would have to explain what it means to attend to the actual and secondly what exactly the actual is. We don't have to define what minus thoughts or without thoughts means. I think that's obvious. It would also be important to explain whether attending to the actual results in no thoughts or whether no thoughts is a precondition before we even attend to the actual. "What is the actual?" is self-inquiry, and so, beyond definition. "Attending the actual" is eyes open, walking/talking meditation. Analytic thoughts about cheggs can be fun and interesting, but are completely antithetical to the practice.
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2023 12:32:17 GMT -5
I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was at least two years of pretty regular meditation (in many different forms) before there could be awareness of mental silence without the mind jumping in and saying "Oh, the mind has become silent." Haha!
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2023 13:29:20 GMT -5
I don't disagree with any of that. I was being a bit intentionally mischievous. 😃 But I was interested to drill down forensically into what it means to: Attend to the actual without or minus thoughts. Firstly we would have to explain what it means to attend to the actual and secondly what exactly the actual is. We don't have to define what minus thoughts or without thoughts means. I think that's obvious. It would also be important to explain whether attending to the actual results in no thoughts or whether no thoughts is a precondition before we even attend to the actual. "What is the actual?" is self-inquiry, and so, beyond definition. "Attending the actual" is eyes open, walking/talking meditation. Analytic thoughts about cheggs can be fun and interesting, but are completely antithetical to the practice. So true.
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