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Post by zendancer on Apr 25, 2014 17:24:03 GMT -5
ZM Seung Sahn once gave a talk about mantra recitation practice. He said that the whole notion of a special mantra was nonsense as far as he was concerned. He said that people could get the same effect by saying "coca cola" over and over and focusing on that phrase. He got a big laugh by imitating someone sitting with eyes closed and saying "coca cola, coca cola, coca cola." As Top noted, the physical benefit will occur regardless of the word(s) that one focuses upon.
Some Tibetan traditions are really into mantra practice, and the practice works great for some people. Some lamas came to a local meditation group and told them to repeat a particular phrase 100,000 times. They explained that it would calm the mind, and after doing this one phrase for 100k times, they were to be given a second phrase to repeat another 100k times. One lady who got into the practice was like a different person when I met her a year later whereas other people had not noticeably been affected.
Zen teachers almost never recommend mantra practice. If someone is super ADD, some sort of physical activity may be initially prescribed, such as full-prostration bowing. After the mind calms down a bit, the person might then be given a mantra, and when the mantra has chilled them out a bit more, then they are given breath-counting, followed by breath awareness or shikan taza or koan contemplation.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 25, 2014 17:29:02 GMT -5
Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. Hehehe....love that Yeah, that was my main point. Ha ha. A friend of mine meditated every day for two years and then gave it up. He told me later that after two years of practice, his internal dialogue had never stopped for a single second or even slowed down. He had such a busy mind that I suspect he would have had to practice a lot more than 30 or 40 minutes per day to notice any gaps in his thinking. The gaps were there, of course, but his personal narrative was so incessant that he never noticed them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 18:52:32 GMT -5
Hehehe....love that Yeah, that was my main point. Ha ha. A friend of mine meditated every day for two years and then gave it up. He told me later that after two years of practice, his internal dialogue had never stopped for a single second or even slowed down. He had such a busy mind that I suspect he would have had to practice a lot more than 30 or 40 minutes per day to notice any gaps in his thinking. The gaps were there, of course, but his personal narrative was so incessant that he never noticed them. I wonder if he ever actually meditated a single minute lol
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Post by japhy on Apr 26, 2014 8:41:27 GMT -5
Hey I have another question concerning the topic. Recently someone told me that (by some people) it is not recommended to meditate before going to sleep. For me I usually do meditate before going to sleep. First (not always) I do some sitting meditation and actually every night I do some lying meditation. I lie on my back meditating (I won't go to sleep in this position unless I am very, very tired) and when I have enough I just change my position to the side and go to sleep. Okay I have also experienced this blank state insomnia, which was mentioned earlier, and maybe if there was some energetic shift during meditation or maybe the universal sound has become very loud or something has come up I might not sleep too deep this very night. But these occasions are pretty rare and pass. In general I have the feeling it makes my sleep more relaxing and my dreams more clear.
Okay I know there might not be an general answer, but maybe someone has some insight on it.
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Post by topology on Apr 26, 2014 13:08:43 GMT -5
Hey I have another question concerning the topic. Recently someone told me that (by some people) it is not recommended to meditate before going to sleep. For me I usually do meditate before going to sleep. First (not always) I do some sitting meditation and actually every night I do some lying meditation. I lie on my back meditating (I won't go to sleep in this position unless I am very, very tired) and when I have enough I just change my position to the side and go to sleep. Okay I have also experienced this blank state insomnia, which was mentioned earlier, and maybe if there was some energetic shift during meditation or maybe the universal sound has become very loud or something has come up I might not sleep too deep this very night. But these occasions are pretty rare and pass. In general I have the feeling it makes my sleep more relaxing and my dreams more clear. Okay I know there might not be an general answer, but maybe someone has some insight on it. There are too many different kinds of activities called meditation. Some relaxing, some stimulating (making one awake), etc. Before going to bed, the relaxation kind would be compatible.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 14:14:25 GMT -5
Hey I have another question concerning the topic. Recently someone told me that (by some people) it is not recommended to meditate before going to sleep. For me I usually do meditate before going to sleep. First (not always) I do some sitting meditation and actually every night I do some lying meditation. I lie on my back meditating (I won't go to sleep in this position unless I am very, very tired) and when I have enough I just change my position to the side and go to sleep. Okay I have also experienced this blank state insomnia, which was mentioned earlier, and maybe if there was some energetic shift during meditation or maybe the universal sound has become very loud or something has come up I might not sleep too deep this very night. But these occasions are pretty rare and pass. In general I have the feeling it makes my sleep more relaxing and my dreams more clear. Okay I know there might not be an general answer, but maybe someone has some insight on it. FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. Like Top says, each body/mind is different. Perhaps some people don't recommend meditating prior to sleep because there is less alertness at that time and meditation relaxes the body (which means that the meditation won't last very long). Who knows? This body usually falls asleep instantly, but occasionally it will wake up at 3AM for a drink of water or a visit to the bathroom, and not fall back asleep afterwards. If that happens, it will usually get up and meditate for a while (listen to universal sound, etc) before going back to bed. I, too, have experienced the "blank state" wide-awake kind of insomnia on a few occasions, but when that occurs, I usually get up and go for a walk or meditate. I have no idea what causes that condition. Also FWIW, some women find it hard to sleep deeply after menopause. It is obviously a chemical thing caused by lack of estrogen. Sometimes birth control pills, or sleeping medication (ambien, etc), or a light anti-depressant (trazodone, clonazepam, etc) helps, but from what I've heard this is a very common problem in women over the age of sixty. During WW2, physicians taught air force pilots a technique for falling asleep. The pilots were so frightened of the upcoming bombing missions scheduled for the following day that they couldn't fall sleep. The technique involves tensing all of the muscles of the body in a sequence starting with the legs and moving up to the face muscles. When the entire body is totally tensed, the tension is held isometrically and breathing occurs using the diaphragm only. After several moments, the muscles are sequentially relaxed from the face down to the legs. Then, this whole sequence is repeated. Usually one of two things happens. Sometimes there is what's called "the fish reflex" in which the entire body suddenly jerks. If this happens, the body almost instantly falls asleep. Most commonly the tensing and relaxing sequence generates yawning, and this also leads almost immediately to sleep. Anyone having trouble sleeping can give this a try. It's effectiveness is pretty amazing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 14:31:45 GMT -5
FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. (unrelated to the thread at hand) Do you think that unconditional trust of a teacher is of any importance? And I'm talking about the good ones, the ones you know in your heart can point the way. And of course, the good ones would know all they can do is point, that the searching and/or finding would be the students work alone, should they choose to persevere.
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Post by runstill on Apr 26, 2014 14:33:40 GMT -5
Hey I have another question concerning the topic. Recently someone told me that (by some people) it is not recommended to meditate before going to sleep. For me I usually do meditate before going to sleep. First (not always) I do some sitting meditation and actually every night I do some lying meditation. I lie on my back meditating (I won't go to sleep in this position unless I am very, very tired) and when I have enough I just change my position to the side and go to sleep. Okay I have also experienced this blank state insomnia, which was mentioned earlier, and maybe if there was some energetic shift during meditation or maybe the universal sound has become very loud or something has come up I might not sleep too deep this very night. But these occasions are pretty rare and pass. In general I have the feeling it makes my sleep more relaxing and my dreams more clear. Okay I know there might not be an general answer, but maybe someone has some insight on it. FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. Like Top says, each body/mind is different. Perhaps some people don't recommend meditating prior to sleep because there is less alertness at that time and meditation relaxes the body (which means that the meditation won't last very long). Who knows? This body usually falls asleep instantly, but occasionally it will wake up at 3AM for a drink of water or a visit to the bathroom, and not fall back asleep afterwards. If that happens, it will usually get up and meditate for a while (listen to universal sound, etc) before going back to bed. I, too, have experienced the "blank state" wide-awake kind of insomnia on a few occasions, but when that occurs, I usually get up and go for a walk or meditate. I have no idea what causes that condition. Also FWIW, some women find it hard to sleep deeply after menopause. It is obviously a chemical thing caused by lack of estrogen. Sometimes birth control pills, or sleeping medication (ambien, etc), or a light anti-depressant (trazodone, clonazepam, etc) helps, but from what I've heard this is a very common problem in women over the age of sixty. During WW2, physicians taught air force pilots a technique for falling asleep. The pilots were so frightened of the upcoming bombing missions scheduled for the following day that they couldn't fall sleep. The technique involves tensing all of the muscles of the body in a sequence starting with the legs and moving up to the face muscles. When the entire body is totally tensed, the tension is held isometrically and breathing occurs using the diaphragm only. After several moments, the muscles are sequentially relaxed from the face down to the legs. Then, this whole sequence is repeated. Usually one of two things happens. Sometimes there is what's called "the fish reflex" in which the entire body suddenly jerks. If this happens, the body almost instantly falls asleep. Most commonly the tensing and relaxing sequence generates yawning, and this also leads almost immediately to sleep. Anyone having trouble sleeping can give this a try. It's effectiveness is pretty amazing. That is really good information , I will definitely try it. I have for a long time focused on the tension in the face muscles particularly the jaw muscles and allow them to relax this sometimes causes a cascade of relaxation in other area's of the body. Sleep usually follows. It never occurred to actually cause the muscles to become even more tense and then relax them , seems that will be even more effective...
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Post by silence on Apr 26, 2014 16:33:57 GMT -5
Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia? During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Deep sleep is the restful part. The less need you have to try and resolve your conflicts and issues through dreams, the more restful you will feel.
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 18:43:28 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Deep sleep is the restful part. The less need you have to try and resolve your conflicts and issues through dreams, the more restful you will feel. I'm not familiar with that idea -- that dreams are for resolving conflicts. I'm familiar with the idea that they might have something to do with the learning process, and I've got some reference for that notion from dabbling in AI software years ago.
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 18:49:40 GMT -5
FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. (unrelated to the thread at hand) Do you think that unconditional trust of a teacher is of any importance? And I'm talking about the good ones, the ones you know in your heart can point the way. And of course, the good ones would know all they can do is point, that the searching and/or finding would be the students work alone, should they choose to persevere. I say trust leads to willingness, which is mucho important.
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 18:58:25 GMT -5
FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. Like Top says, each body/mind is different. Perhaps some people don't recommend meditating prior to sleep because there is less alertness at that time and meditation relaxes the body (which means that the meditation won't last very long). Who knows? This body usually falls asleep instantly, but occasionally it will wake up at 3AM for a drink of water or a visit to the bathroom, and not fall back asleep afterwards. If that happens, it will usually get up and meditate for a while (listen to universal sound, etc) before going back to bed. I, too, have experienced the "blank state" wide-awake kind of insomnia on a few occasions, but when that occurs, I usually get up and go for a walk or meditate. I have no idea what causes that condition. Also FWIW, some women find it hard to sleep deeply after menopause. It is obviously a chemical thing caused by lack of estrogen. Sometimes birth control pills, or sleeping medication (ambien, etc), or a light anti-depressant (trazodone, clonazepam, etc) helps, but from what I've heard this is a very common problem in women over the age of sixty. During WW2, physicians taught air force pilots a technique for falling asleep. The pilots were so frightened of the upcoming bombing missions scheduled for the following day that they couldn't fall sleep. The technique involves tensing all of the muscles of the body in a sequence starting with the legs and moving up to the face muscles. When the entire body is totally tensed, the tension is held isometrically and breathing occurs using the diaphragm only. After several moments, the muscles are sequentially relaxed from the face down to the legs. Then, this whole sequence is repeated. Usually one of two things happens. Sometimes there is what's called "the fish reflex" in which the entire body suddenly jerks. If this happens, the body almost instantly falls asleep. Most commonly the tensing and relaxing sequence generates yawning, and this also leads almost immediately to sleep. Anyone having trouble sleeping can give this a try. It's effectiveness is pretty amazing. That is really good information , I will definitely try it. I have for a long time focused on the tension in the face muscles particularly the jaw muscles and allow them to relax this sometimes causes a cascade of relaxation in other area's of the body. Sleep usually follows. It never occurred to actually cause the muscles to become even more tense and then relax them , seems that will be even more effective... Many muscles are quite tense all the time, and so this tension is no longer noticed. Hencely, it's difficult to relax a muscle you don't know is tensed. Consciously tensing a muscle brings awareness to that base level of tension. Most folks have a constant tension in the abdomen that they don't recognize most of the time, which not only leads to stomach upset and digestive problems, but prevents one from breathing into the lower part of the lungs. On a body energy level, it's a major block.
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 19:01:48 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Deep sleep is the restful part. The less need you have to try and resolve your conflicts and issues through dreams, the more restful you will feel. In that way, we could say that dreaming is an attempt to get to deep, dreamless sleep by getting all the busyness out of the way.
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 19:05:58 GMT -5
Deep sleep is the restful part. The less need you have to try and resolve your conflicts and issues through dreams, the more restful you will feel. I'm not familiar with that idea -- that dreams are for resolving conflicts. I'm familiar with the idea that they might have something to do with the learning process, and I've got some reference for that notion from dabbling in AI software years ago. More generally, I'd say dreaming follows emotional interest, which unfortunatly is often negative interest.
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Post by topology on Apr 26, 2014 21:32:48 GMT -5
FWIW, the best advice is to trust yourself. (unrelated to the thread at hand) Do you think that unconditional trust of a teacher is of any importance? And I'm talking about the good ones, the ones you know in your heart can point the way. And of course, the good ones would know all they can do is point, that the searching and/or finding would be the students work alone, should they choose to persevere. Do you trust yourself to know exactly what they are saying? Do you trust yourself that you are seeing them clearly and not putting them on a pedestal? I would think that would have to come first before unconditional trust could be placed with a teacher and not have it back-fire.
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