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Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2014 10:55:13 GMT -5
Hey Farmer & Silver - the hypnotist has been planting stuff to help me sleep and it's working. Five days in a row sleeping until 6AM - WOOT WOOT! Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia?  During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep.  ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia!  Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen!  |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 25, 2014 11:35:12 GMT -5
Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia? During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2014 11:45:22 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. Just can't relate to that idea of no effect, like at all ... of course, when you're really really anxious it's easy to notice a differential -- that was another topic the guy went over: people who are "type A" are more likely to report a big change in experience while other people are completely non-plussed. He went on to say though that in either case the physical benefits (essentially, slower physical aging) were available. |
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Post by quinn on Apr 25, 2014 12:22:01 GMT -5
Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. I'm with Laughter on this...you know people who have meditated for 20 years with no noticeable effect? Wow. I'm sure my exposure to meditators is a lot smaller than yours, but everyone I know that stuck with it sees big changes. Maybe it's cause we're all doing Vipassana meditation, which combines breath practice with inquiry. I've never done mantra meditation. Well, once - combined with kirtana. It was pretty cool, actually, cause it got a lot of energy moving. I talked with a guy at TAT once who did TM meditation for many years - he really liked the structure of the 20 minute thing. Me, not so much. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:54:50 GMT -5
Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia? During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Then what is saying that you can't sleep? Meditation is a 'focusing' of attention on something like a mantra, sensation, feeling or perception. It can only focus on an object, it can't actually focus on awareness. Advaita as I understand it, is a de-focusing of the attention away from the mind, the I, and the world. Allowing it to flow back to its source. |
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Post by topology on Apr 25, 2014 13:46:04 GMT -5
Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia? During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! I have this phenomena as well. It's like the lights are on full bright. I'm just awake, but blank. I've noticed it happens more when either I have taken a lot of caffeine or I am laser focused throughout the day and no longer have anything to focus on. Yes, prolonged meditation has the same effect as it hones the alert focus. I sat in on a TM intro lecture. It was quite humorous to me. It had the structure of an MLM presentation. The guy described enough about its use and its effects that I intuited the practice from the description. His "special training" that he charges for is just a one on one interview where he gives you a supposedly tailored mantra to repeat during your 20 minute meditation sessions. The mantra is a gimmick to distract the mind, giving it something harmless and meaningless to obsess about while the rest of the system relaxes. The results of the practice are proven and invaluable, but any practice which yields the same results can be substituted for it. It comes down to a matter of discipline and engaging the practice. Many people kind of guffaw and clench their sphincters at the price of training. But if going through the whole dog and pony show and being mesmerized by the claims inspires you to stick with the practice long enough to see results, it may well be worth a few thousand dollars to you for the quality of life improvement. But what you are paying for is not the practice. You're paying for the artificial structure erected to regularly bring you into the practice. You're paying to be hypnotized, essentially. |
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Post by topology on Apr 25, 2014 13:54:43 GMT -5
Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. I'm with Laughter on this...you know people who have meditated for 20 years with no noticeable effect? Wow. I'm sure my exposure to meditators is a lot smaller than yours, but everyone I know that stuck with it sees big changes. Maybe it's cause we're all doing Vipassana meditation, which combines breath practice with inquiry. I've never done mantra meditation. Well, once - combined with kirtana. It was pretty cool, actually, cause it got a lot of energy moving. I talked with a guy at TAT once who did TM meditation for many years - he really liked the structure of the 20 minute thing. Me, not so much. Mike Connors? TM worked for him and he advocates it. But its not necessary and may be counter-productive depending on the type of nervous system you have. Meaning, if you force yourself into the practice because you're trying to achieve something by doing it, you're doing it wrong and the practice may cause problems you're not ready to cope with. Too much meditation too quickly can lead to loss of functionality in the world. Unless you live in a culture which idolizes people in vegetable states (Ramana Maharshi), you're not going to last very long living in a blank mind. |
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Post by quinn on Apr 25, 2014 14:11:42 GMT -5
I'm with Laughter on this...you know people who have meditated for 20 years with no noticeable effect? Wow. I'm sure my exposure to meditators is a lot smaller than yours, but everyone I know that stuck with it sees big changes. Maybe it's cause we're all doing Vipassana meditation, which combines breath practice with inquiry. I've never done mantra meditation. Well, once - combined with kirtana. It was pretty cool, actually, cause it got a lot of energy moving. I talked with a guy at TAT once who did TM meditation for many years - he really liked the structure of the 20 minute thing. Me, not so much. Mike Connors? TM worked for him and he advocates it. But its not necessary and may be counter-productive depending on the type of nervous system you have. Meaning, if you force yourself into the practice because you're trying to achieve something by doing it, you're doing it wrong and the practice may cause problems you're not ready to cope with. Too much meditation too quickly can lead to loss of functionality in the world. Unless you live in a culture which idolizes people in vegetable states (Ramana Maharshi), you're not going to last very long living in a blank mind. I think it was Mike Connors. I'm terrible with names. Had a great chat with him while we all walked. I didn't know TM gives you a mantra. I think in any meditation practice, part of it has to be training the mind not to jump all over like a crazy monkey. And some have crazier monkeys than others. But at some point, when things have settled down, it's got to be about seeing - witnessing. Ah, that's maybe just my bias for inquiry showing. But with TM, do they ever put down the mantra? |
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Post by topology on Apr 25, 2014 14:30:01 GMT -5
Mike Connors? TM worked for him and he advocates it. But its not necessary and may be counter-productive depending on the type of nervous system you have. Meaning, if you force yourself into the practice because you're trying to achieve something by doing it, you're doing it wrong and the practice may cause problems you're not ready to cope with. Too much meditation too quickly can lead to loss of functionality in the world. Unless you live in a culture which idolizes people in vegetable states (Ramana Maharshi), you're not going to last very long living in a blank mind. I think it was Mike Connors. I'm terrible with names. Had a great chat with him while we all walked. I didn't know TM gives you a mantra. I think in any meditation practice, part of it has to be training the mind not to jump all over like a crazy monkey. And some have crazier monkeys than others. But at some point, when things have settled down, it's got to be about seeing - witnessing. Ah, that's maybe just my bias for inquiry showing. But with TM, do they ever put down the mantra?Not to my knowledge. Once you buy into the framework, you're hooked into thinking its the proper way of meditating... ZD pointed to some pitfalls with TM meditation. Most people get into it for the sake of achieving something or going somewhere and they play a game of measuring progress, advancement and status. The value of the practice is in its ability to allow the bulk of the system to rest and relax. But if someone is trying to "get somewhere" then there is always that tension of trying to achieve something during the practice. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 14:52:57 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Yeah, one of the things that cracks me up about TM meditation advice is the "20 minutes twice per day, no more no less" thingy. How about "20 minutes twice per day of THINKING allowed, no more, no less?" Ha ha. I'll bet that anybody who could follow THAT advice would become a happy camper! That's one of the things that makes me wonder about people who claim to have meditated for twenty years with no noticeable effect. If they're doing a mantra for 40 minutes per day and thinking like crazy for the remaining 16 hours each day, I can see why there might not be any noticeable effect. Especially if they're checking on their "progress" during that 40 minutes of mantra recitation. Hehehe....love that |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 15:17:01 GMT -5
I think it was Mike Connors. I'm terrible with names. Had a great chat with him while we all walked. I didn't know TM gives you a mantra. I think in any meditation practice, part of it has to be training the mind not to jump all over like a crazy monkey. And some have crazier monkeys than others. But at some point, when things have settled down, it's got to be about seeing - witnessing. Ah, that's maybe just my bias for inquiry showing. But with TM, do they ever put down the mantra?Not to my knowledge. Once you buy into the framework, you're hooked into thinking its the proper way of meditating... ZD pointed to some pitfalls with TM meditation. Most people get into it for the sake of achieving something or going somewhere and they play a game of measuring progress, advancement and status. The value of the practice is in its ability to allow the bulk of the system to rest and relax. But if someone is trying to "get somewhere" then there is always that tension of trying to achieve something during the practice. Exactly...to expand on the mantra thing though, and why TM is so popular...in meditation there is always a gate, or a focal point in the beginning, a place where attention is focussed....anything and any activity will do as the focal point, and folks like yourself, who effectively spend most of the day in a kind of flowing meditation (the whole day in a kind of 'laser focus') potentially make everything a meditation focal point. There is a common phenomena thats been known for centuries with regard to mantra's being the focal point of entry for meditation, and that is that for the novice meditator, the steady rhythm and cadence of the mantra causes a trance-like state that is more like doing drugs than meditating...and the novice meditator doesn't know the difference between a trance-like state and meditation...for this reason mantric meditation practices are not usually appropriate for a novice that is not under the daily guidance of someone with a lot of experience with mantric meditation practices. Too often though, mantra's are assigned by guru for hire folks, because other than taking drugs, mantras are about the easiest way to enter an altered state of consciousness...which in turn makes one feel like they got something for the money. Usually there is not event any bad intent, its just a culture that everyone in the group maintains. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2014 15:57:24 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! Then what is saying that you can't sleep? The best description I can give is just this sense of open, blank energy as I lie there. Sleep just won't come, and there's a heightened sense of what we've discussed here previously as the "Universal sound". Doesn't happen all that often. The old kind of insomnia rooted in thought is long long gone. Meditation is a 'focusing' of attention on something like a mantra, sensation, feeling or perception. Advaita as I understand it, is a de-focusing of the attention away from the mind, the I, and the world. In deliberate sitting I'll intently watch thoughts, which for a couple of years now they go to near zero almost as soon as I close my eyes, so then the focus is on waiting for the inception of the next one, and catching the nascent, sort of wispy arising of the proto thought as it comes into focus. Bode Miller described downhill racing during Sochi as something along the lines of a "paradoxical mix of complete relaxation and utter concentration", and in my experience sitting medication is like that: long periods of "no-thought-phase-lock" are possible after the initial focus and then awareness seems to expand -- the open and willing invitation of the next thought is paramount during the entire process. Outside of sitting attention drifts naturally during the day and this is noticed. There's a few primary prescriptions that apply ("watch the thinker", "arouse the mind without resting it on anything", "ATA") and there's a Niz quote that's really applicable and for me sums up what instant-by-instant "practice" is all about: seeker: To do what you tell me I must be ceaselessly aware. Niz: To be aware is to be awake. Unaware means asleep. You are aware anyhow; you need not try to be. What you need is to be aware of being aware. Be aware deliberately and consciously; broaden and deepen the field of awareness. You are always conscious of the mind, but you are not aware of yourself as being conscious. (from chapter 48 of "I AM THAT", "Awareness Is Free") I can't say much about formal Advaita, but in my forum career the informing of mind has followed this same general process pattern of constricting attention on various conceptual structures while remaining open -- even (and sort of especially) as surprising and initially rejected ideas run across the screen. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2014 16:04:45 GMT -5
During the TM pitch my wife arranged for last years birthday the teacher made it clear that the recommendation is to practice twice a day for 20 minutes no more no less. Disruption of the sleep pattern from over meditation was one of the topics that he covered by telling a story about one of his students. I've noticed that during times of regular practice if there's not much physical activity I can lay in bed, no racing thoughts, no active mind at all, just can't sleep. ... it's a completely different brand of insomnia! Maybe it's related to the phenomena that ZD wrote about how an intense sitting practice leads to less of a need for sleep. I definitely find a correlation between quality of sleep and frequency and intensity of practice -- the sleep seems to get deeper and more restful -- as long as that "blank-energy-burst-insomnia-thingy" don't happen! I have this phenomena as well. It's like the lights are on full bright. I'm just awake, but blank. I've noticed it happens more when either I have taken a lot of caffeine or I am laser focused throughout the day and no longer have anything to focus on. Yes, prolonged meditation has the same effect as it hones the alert focus. I sat in on a TM intro lecture. It was quite humorous to me. It had the structure of an MLM presentation. The guy described enough about its use and its effects that I intuited the practice from the description. His "special training" that he charges for is just a one on one interview where he gives you a supposedly tailored mantra to repeat during your 20 minute meditation sessions. The mantra is a gimmick to distract the mind, giving it something harmless and meaningless to obsess about while the rest of the system relaxes. The results of the practice are proven and invaluable, but any practice which yields the same results can be substituted for it. It comes down to a matter of discipline and engaging the practice. Many people kind of guffaw and clench their sphincters at the price of training. But if going through the whole dog and pony show and being mesmerized by the claims inspires you to stick with the practice long enough to see results, it may well be worth a few thousand dollars to you for the quality of life improvement. But what you are paying for is not the practice. You're paying for the artificial structure erected to regularly bring you into the practice. You're paying to be hypnotized, essentially. Perhaps for someone who hasn't done any self-education on the questions of inquiry and meditation that's the case -- just paying to be hypnotized. It does strike me as very pricey for what they're offering -- the interest there was Sue's.  I've corresponded with a couple of longtime TM practioner's who I've got a deep respect for. They both tell the same tale of intense practice for many years and then on reading "The Power of Now" it became clear to them in an instant the nature of the relationship of the practitioner to the practice, between the witness and what is witnessed. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 16:16:32 GMT -5
Then what is saying that you can't sleep? The best description I can give is just this sense of open, blank energy as I lie there. Sleep just won't come, and there's a heightened sense of what we've discussed here previously as the "Universal sound". Doesn't happen all that often. The old kind of insomnia rooted in thought is long long gone. Meditation is a 'focusing' of attention on something like a mantra, sensation, feeling or perception. Advaita as I understand it, is a de-focusing of the attention away from the mind, the I, and the world. In deliberate sitting I'll intently watch thoughts, which for a couple of years now they go to near zero almost as soon as I close my eyes, so then the focus is on waiting for the inception of the next one, and catching the nascent, sort of wispy arising of the proto thought as it comes into focus. Bode Miller described downhill racing during Sochi as something along the lines of a "paradoxical mix of complete relaxation and utter concentration", and in my experience sitting medication is like that: long periods of "no-thought-phase-lock" are possible after the initial focus and then awareness seems to expand -- the open and willing invitation of the next thought is paramount during the entire process. Outside of sitting attention drifts naturally during the day and this is noticed. There's a few primary prescriptions that apply ("watch the thinker", "arouse the mind without resting it on anything", "ATA") and there's a Niz quote that's really applicable and for me sums up what instant-by-instant "practice" is all about: seeker: To do what you tell me I must be ceaselessly aware. Niz: To be aware is to be awake. Unaware means asleep. You are aware anyhow; you need not try to be. What you need is to be aware of being aware. Be aware deliberately and consciously; broaden and deepen the field of awareness. You are always conscious of the mind, but you are not aware of yourself as being conscious. (from chapter 48 of "I AM THAT", "Awareness Is Free") I can't say much about formal Advaita, but in my forum career the informing of mind has followed this same general process pattern of constricting attention on various conceptual structures while remaining open -- even (and sort of especially) as surprising and initially rejected ideas run across the screen. I was just referring to your comment about it seeming like an empty mind state, (paraphrasing). If something is perceived, like a sense of open, blank energy, or a universal sound then it is still a mind state. If I had to guess, I'd say that whatever it's cause, it's catching the attention. And then resisting the receding of the attention from returning to its source. Other than that I enjoyed the rest of your post. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2014 16:20:32 GMT -5
The best description I can give is just this sense of open, blank energy as I lie there. Sleep just won't come, and there's a heightened sense of what we've discussed here previously as the "Universal sound". Doesn't happen all that often. The old kind of insomnia rooted in thought is long long gone. In deliberate sitting I'll intently watch thoughts, which for a couple of years now they go to near zero almost as soon as I close my eyes, so then the focus is on waiting for the inception of the next one, and catching the nascent, sort of wispy arising of the proto thought as it comes into focus. Bode Miller described downhill racing during Sochi as something along the lines of a "paradoxical mix of complete relaxation and utter concentration", and in my experience sitting medication is like that: long periods of "no-thought-phase-lock" are possible after the initial focus and then awareness seems to expand -- the open and willing invitation of the next thought is paramount during the entire process. Outside of sitting attention drifts naturally during the day and this is noticed. There's a few primary prescriptions that apply ("watch the thinker", "arouse the mind without resting it on anything", "ATA") and there's a Niz quote that's really applicable and for me sums up what instant-by-instant "practice" is all about: I can't say much about formal Advaita, but in my forum career the informing of mind has followed this same general process pattern of constricting attention on various conceptual structures while remaining open -- even (and sort of especially) as surprising and initially rejected ideas run across the screen. I was just referring to your comment about it seeming like an empty mind state, (paraphrasing). If something is perceived, like a sense of open, blank energy, or a universal sound then it is still a mind state. If I had to guess, I'd say that whatever it's cause, it's catching the attention. And then resisting the receding of the attention from returning to its source. Other than that I enjoyed the rest of your post. Oh yes certainly, "thought-free insomnia" definitely describes a mind state for sure, as does all that talk about meditation! |
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