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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2014 20:37:10 GMT -5
But that's the beauty of it...it's not a blow to the sense of I because it is that sense of I that wakes up. It's almost a joke. Old habits and programming are gone before this happens as life prepares you for this..that's how i see it anyways. Otherwise you would never wake up. It's a gentle process, given to you at your own pace.....by yourself. Which I are you saying wakes up? The sense of a separate I or the I that we know ourselves to truly be? "Knock knock .. who's there? ... nobody! .. nobody who? .. YUP!"
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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2014 20:38:15 GMT -5
Which I are you saying wakes up? The sense of a separate I or the I that we know ourselves to truly be? They are one and the same. It's closer than your breath. In this case then either the word separate or I has been rendered meaningless.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 20:40:34 GMT -5
The only reason I asked and I'm not saying that this is your situation, is that some say that the ego can take on the intellectual understanding of what we truly are. What happens then is that the ego uses that understanding for it's own devices. While the by-product of a deep experiential understanding is one of a peacefulness that permeates ones thoughts, feelings, perceptions and relationships. Manifesting in more happiness. Thanks for sharing. Rather than more happiness, an alternative perspective is an absence of existential dread. In the sweep of life and the cycles of the play of appearances, that can appear to manifest as happiness, but most notions of happy tend toward the conditional. Existential dread is what I experience when I see the vast universe and behold the frigid indifference of a silent void. And that is my Easter message for all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 20:40:58 GMT -5
The only reason I asked and I'm not saying that this is your situation, is that some say that the ego can take on the intellectual understanding of what we truly are. What happens then is that the ego uses that understanding for it's own devices. While the by-product of a deep experiential understanding is one of a peacefulness that permeates ones thoughts, feelings, perceptions and relationships. Manifesting in more happiness. Thanks for sharing. Rather than more happiness, an alternative perspective is an absence of existential dread. In the sweep of life and the cycles of the play of appearances, that can appear to manifest as happiness, but most notions of happy tend toward the conditional. Yes, I would say that is a more accurate perspective. Happiness doesn't really manifest but rather the things like existential dread can't entice us to come out and play anymore, which makes us happy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 20:42:47 GMT -5
Which I are you saying wakes up? The sense of a separate I or the I that we know ourselves to truly be? "Knock knock .. who's there? ... nobody! .. nobody who? .. YUP!"
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Post by silver on Apr 15, 2014 20:46:53 GMT -5
The only reason I asked and I'm not saying that this is your situation, is that some say that the ego can take on the intellectual understanding of what we truly are. What happens then is that the ego uses that understanding for it's own devices. While the by-product of a deep experiential understanding is one of a peacefulness that permeates ones thoughts, feelings, perceptions and relationships. Manifesting in more happiness. Thanks for sharing. Rather than more happiness, an alternative perspective is an absence of existential dread. In the sweep of life and the cycles of the play of appearances, that can appear to manifest as happiness, but most notions of happy tend toward the conditional. Nice one, Bill...definitely hooked my attention.
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 15, 2014 21:24:10 GMT -5
They are one and the same. It's closer than your breath. In this case then either the word separate or I has been rendered meaningless. I don't know, I think that is an attempt to find meaning by saying it is meaningless. I cannot deny a sense of me and a sense of this me being seperate from others. Conversely I cannot deny that what I am is the same source of all otherness. There are no answers found in awakening. There simply is an added perspective that was hidden before. There also is an understanding that the groundless nature of the ground is without answers or understanding. That would be making Self into something graspable. As I said before this side of Self reflects Self which has no reflection.
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Post by enigma on Apr 15, 2014 23:10:08 GMT -5
That doesn't leave much. You said "I exist as appearances", which you say is being, and you say there is no self apart from being, so that means there is no self apart from appearances. So I asked, if there were no appearances, would there be no self? I also asked how you know appearances will always appear. I followed it by saying " meaning THIS is being". Self is emptiness, Self is being. There cannot be being without self which I see clearly. You are asking if there can be no being and I would have to say no because it is seen that life, being is eternal. I cannot seperate the two. There is no seperation in the sense of seperation. Like I said before, it's a two sided coin. The only way I know to interpret that is as a 'yes'. If there were no appearances, there would be no self. No coin without that side?
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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2014 23:35:42 GMT -5
Rather than more happiness, an alternative perspective is an absence of existential dread. In the sweep of life and the cycles of the play of appearances, that can appear to manifest as happiness, but most notions of happy tend toward the conditional. Existential dread is what I experience when I see the vast universe and behold the frigid indifference of a silent void. And that is my Easter message for all. Face it. (** stands behind the 'bum with a scowl while smacking billy club on open left palm **)
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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2014 23:38:15 GMT -5
Rather than more happiness, an alternative perspective is an absence of existential dread. In the sweep of life and the cycles of the play of appearances, that can appear to manifest as happiness, but most notions of happy tend toward the conditional. Yes, I would say that is a more accurate perspective. Happiness doesn't really manifest but rather the things like existential dread can't entice us to come out and play anymore, which makes us happy.
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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2014 23:53:15 GMT -5
In this case then either the word separate or I has been rendered meaningless. I don't know, I think that is an attempt to find meaning by saying it is meaningless. I cannot deny a sense of me and a sense of this me being seperate from others. Conversely I cannot deny that what I am is the same source of all otherness. There are no answers found in awakening. There simply is an added perspective that was hidden before. There also is an understanding that the groundless nature of the ground is without answers or understanding. That would be making Self into something graspable. As I said before this side of Self reflects Self which has no reflection. An absence of meaning is not the presence of anything.
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 16, 2014 5:27:59 GMT -5
I followed it by saying " meaning THIS is being". Self is emptiness, Self is being. There cannot be being without self which I see clearly. You are asking if there can be no being and I would have to say no because it is seen that life, being is eternal. I cannot seperate the two. There is no seperation in the sense of seperation. Like I said before, it's a two sided coin. The only way I know to interpret that is as a 'yes'. If there were no appearances, there would be no self. No coin without that side? I guess so but the word if jumps out at me as totally irrelevant but for the sake of conversation.....no coin without that side. Even saying no coin seems really off. I guess to me such words suggests a beginning to the coin.
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 16, 2014 6:06:23 GMT -5
I don't know, I think that is an attempt to find meaning by saying it is meaningless. I cannot deny a sense of me and a sense of this me being seperate from others. Conversely I cannot deny that what I am is the same source of all otherness. There are no answers found in awakening. There simply is an added perspective that was hidden before. There also is an understanding that the groundless nature of the ground is without answers or understanding. That would be making Self into something graspable. As I said before this side of Self reflects Self which has no reflection. An absence of meaning is not the presence of anything. I agree but the presence of meaningless is. It's like replacing one for the other.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 16, 2014 6:54:53 GMT -5
I don't know, I think that is an attempt to find meaning by saying it is meaningless. I cannot deny a sense of me and a sense of this me being seperate from others. Conversely I cannot deny that what I am is the same source of all otherness. There are no answers found in awakening. There simply is an added perspective that was hidden before. There also is an understanding that the groundless nature of the ground is without answers or understanding. That would be making Self into something graspable. As I said before this side of Self reflects Self which has no reflection. An absence of meaning is not the presence of anything.
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Post by laughter on Apr 16, 2014 7:22:42 GMT -5
An absence of meaning is not the presence of anything. I agree but the presence of meaningless is. It's like replacing one for the other. An absence is not a presence.
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