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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2014 11:35:38 GMT -5
Sounds simple, but unfortunately it doesn't work. And I've tried for a very long time. Q: If you were someone else, I would write, "What do you mean, 'It doesn't work?' When looking occurs, isn't whatever is in the field of vision seen? That's what looking IS. Can looking occur without naming, without imagining, and without mental comment? Can looking occur in silence without any reflective thoughts? The habit of imagining what is seen is just a bad habit, as is the habit of imagining a looker. Imagining that someone is going to get something by doing something is just more idiotic imagining. Why not drop all of that nonsense, relax, and just be what you ARE? As Earnest said, it is simple. Be still, and look without knowing--no ideas, no images, no symbols. Then stay in that state of alertness without expectation. The worst that can happen is to see what is in front of the eyes. That would be better than wasting more time imagining and staying lost in a trancestate. Best of luck." Because it's you, however, I would not respond in this way. Instead, I would write, "Enjoy the trancestate. It can be a lot of fun." Obviously.FWIW, every time you post on the forum it reminds me of ZM Seung Sahn's koan about the golden fish. "An old ZM used to throw out a fishing line in an effort to catch a golden fish. How can you not get caught?" No matter how his students tried to answer this question, Seung Sahn would always laugh and say, "Ah, just caught another one." Ha ha. I'm always amazed at how easily folks have thrown away all common sense in this spirituality business and just can't grasp those basic no-brainers. Enlightenment is essentially an absence. And as we've seen in the food fights with the "s/he said - you said - I said" ritual, one cannot prove a negative. In the same way, one cannot look for an absence. That's one of the main reasons why the search for enlightenment or the attempt of trying to become enlightened is misconceived. If Q still doesn't get that after all these years he's hanging around here, then I'd say he hasn't been paying attention and is more interested in mind games than anything else.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 5, 2014 11:52:24 GMT -5
Ego is software, runs on your brain. When the brain dies, ego dies. Essence can survive the death of the body. It depends upon what you want. sdp There is zero scientific evidence for what you're saying. Why should I believe you? What you suggest is that I just put faith in your story and go on a wild goose chase. I'm just answering some questions. sdp
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2014 12:05:41 GMT -5
Q: If you were someone else, I would write, "What do you mean, 'It doesn't work?' When looking occurs, isn't whatever is in the field of vision seen? That's what looking IS. Can looking occur without naming, without imagining, and without mental comment? Can looking occur in silence without any reflective thoughts? The habit of imagining what is seen is just a bad habit, as is the habit of imagining a looker. Imagining that someone is going to get something by doing something is just more idiotic imagining. Why not drop all of that nonsense, relax, and just be what you ARE? As Earnest said, it is simple. Be still, and look without knowing--no ideas, no images, no symbols. Then stay in that state of alertness without expectation. The worst that can happen is to see what is in front of the eyes. That would be better than wasting more time imagining and staying lost in a trancestate. Best of luck." Because it's you, however, I would not respond in this way. Instead, I would write, "Enjoy the trancestate. It can be a lot of fun." Obviously.FWIW, every time you post on the forum it reminds me of ZM Seung Sahn's koan about the golden fish. "An old ZM used to throw out a fishing line in an effort to catch a golden fish. How can you not get caught?" No matter how his students tried to answer this question, Seung Sahn would always laugh and say, "Ah, just caught another one." Ha ha. I'm always amazed at how easily folks have thrown away all common sense in this spirituality business and just can't grasp those basic no-brainers. Enlightenment is essentially an absence. And as we've seen in the food fights with the "s/he said - you said - I said" ritual, one cannot prove a negative. In the same way, one cannot look for an absence. That's one of the main reasons why the search for enlightenment or the attempt of trying to become enlightened is misconceived. If Q still doesn't get that after all these years he's hanging around here, then I'd say he hasn't been paying attention and is more interested in mind games than anything else. Yes, the notion of it all being about an absence is subtle, and perhaps counter-intuitive, but not inconceivable. Either it's not being understood as to how it can work that way, or there's really no interest in it working at all.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 5, 2014 12:06:11 GMT -5
"If I am wise, it's because I know that I know nothing". Socrates (Plato's Socrates, not Dan Millman's) sdp But where is the not-knowing in this? Are you saying that I should focus on the thought that "I know nothing"? But then I still know the thought, don't I? I'm just saying that came from the father of western philosophy. For me it means you can't push beyond the boundary if you're content with what you know, comparatively, what you know is meaningless to what's possible. Empty probably means something a little different. sdp
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Apr 5, 2014 12:33:37 GMT -5
Yes, the notion of it all being about an absence is subtle, and perhaps counter-intuitive, but not inconceivable. Either it's not being understood as to how it can work that way, or there's really no interest in it working at all. It's neither inconceivable, nor counter-intuitive, nor subtle. There is also no difficulty of understanding how it can be that way. I'm totally fine with enlightenment being the abscence of something. But what you don't understand is that it doesn't matter whether the issue is addition of subtraction. Let's say unenlightened state is marked by the presence of x. Enlightened state is marked by abscence of x. Either way they are two different states, that's what matters. And what matters next is how to get from one state to the other.
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Post by teetown on Apr 5, 2014 14:29:26 GMT -5
Your prison cell is imaginary. That's why nobody can tell you how to get out of it. You perceive that these enlightened guys are outside the prison cell and you demand of them "Tell me how you got out?" And they say "I didn't, I was never in the cell and neither are you." But you're not listening. So you keep looking for answers, "there must be a key somewhere, or a trap door, is that it?? Why won't you tell me how to get out?"
Don't you see the futility in that? You don't even have to believe them, just consider the possibility that they are telling the truth.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Apr 5, 2014 14:33:14 GMT -5
Your prison cell is imaginary. I'm sitting here at home, not in a prison cell.That's why nobody can tell you how to get out of it. And I'm not asking anyone to, cos I ain't in one.You perceive that these enlightened guys are outside the prison cell and you demand of them "Tell me how you got out?" And they say "I didn't, I was never in the cell and neither are you." But you're not listening. So you keep looking for answers, "there must be a key somewhere, or a trap door, is that it?? Why won't you tell me how to get out?" What prison cell??? Just because half the Murcan population is in prison doesn't mean that the rest of the world is.Don't you see the futility in that? You don't even have to believe them, just consider the possibility that they are telling the truth.
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Post by silver on Apr 5, 2014 14:43:33 GMT -5
Your prison cell is imaginary. I'm sitting here at home, not in a prison cell.That's why nobody can tell you how to get out of it. And I'm not asking anyone to, cos I ain't in one.You perceive that these enlightened guys are outside the prison cell and you demand of them "Tell me how you got out?" And they say "I didn't, I was never in the cell and neither are you." But you're not listening. So you keep looking for answers, "there must be a key somewhere, or a trap door, is that it?? Why won't you tell me how to get out?" What prison cell??? Just because half the Murcan population is in prison doesn't mean that the rest of the world is.Don't you see the futility in that? You don't even have to believe them, just consider the possibility that they are telling the truth. It's the idea your'e struggling with, not the material / solid thing...the struggling with the idea of enlightenment is your prison, or something like that.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 5, 2014 15:25:33 GMT -5
It's the idea your'e struggling with, not the material / solid thing...the struggling with the idea of enlightenment is your prison, or something like that. Precisely. BB, if you're not in prison (psychologically), why do you want to be enlightened? sdp
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Apr 5, 2014 15:36:03 GMT -5
Precisely. BB, if you're not in prison (psychologically), why do you want to be enlightened? sdp Because you guys always say that it's the best thing on earth. If that's true then of course I also want to have a piece of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 15:50:17 GMT -5
Be VERY alert, and not know. I've never understood what this "not know" means. How to "not know"? "Not know" what? What time it is, who the president of Uruguay is... what should I '"not know"? Everything
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Post by silver on Apr 5, 2014 15:53:00 GMT -5
I've never understood what this "not know" means. How to "not know"? "Not know" what? What time it is, who the president of Uruguay is... what should I '"not know"? Everything See, this is why I think it's up to each individual (who gives a RA) about enlightenment in the first place. I think some take the knowing nothing bit a bit too far. It's more than a little silly, imb.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Apr 5, 2014 16:00:14 GMT -5
I've never understood what this "not know" means. How to "not know"? "Not know" what? What time it is, who the president of Uruguay is... what should I '"not know"? Everything I have no idea what that even means, or how it could be accomplished. The fact is that I actually do know some things. For example I know that 2+2=4. I can't say that I don't know that 2+2=4. Actually I would be lying if I said that I don't know it, so what kind of spiritual practise is this where I have to lie to myself?
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Post by laughter on Apr 5, 2014 16:03:00 GMT -5
Lighting up can happen anytime. Grounding in the delicate denser frequencies and richer tones of love that humanity is capable of, is essential for making the light companionable for other people. If that don't work put a t-shirt on. Or if you're a girl, halternecks work just as well.. I'm grounding myself ...literally. I have aluminum tape running from the bottom of my shoe to the inside for now. Ok, that's a start but you can't leave off the tinfoil hat.
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Post by laughter on Apr 5, 2014 16:13:03 GMT -5
First of all, I'm not a non-dualist, at least in the accepted sense. What you're asking for is a recipe. There is one but it's in stages. There are barriers one has to pass to get to the next stage, gates. All the barriers are actually inside one, but sometimes they look external. Everything is a test. The first stage is to recognize the teaching. If what I'm saying is accurate here, you have to at least recognize that it is a beginning. If you don't, end of story, you move on to something else. I have to give a little background. We are born as essence, our true self, who we are meant to be. Essence comes down from a higher level of reality, an invisible higher dimension. Essence grows when we are born but simultaneously personality/ego begins to form. What it means for essence to grow is that the food we eat, the air we breath and the energy that enters us through the five senses as impressions goes in-to feeding essence. What it means for personality to form is all the information that enters us is stored in the neural networks of the brain/body. A great deal of this comes from our parents or other primary caregivers. This includes the thoughts, emotions and actions of those we encounter. At about the age of six, more or less, personality has formed to such an extent that everything that enters us now falls upon personality, not essence. Therefore, our essence ceases to grow, personality takes all the energy. The journey to enlightenment or awakening is first of all a journey of liberation. The journey is about reversing the process, to again live through essence instead of personality stealing all the energy. So liberation is liberation from personality, who we think ourselves to be. As energy went in-to forming personality, interior spiritual practices are about ceasing to feed personality and then taking the energy out-of personality. Practices similar to ATA-MT do exactly this. Now, this is a long and difficult process, you need to know that heads-up. Essence grows via the transformation of energy. One can transform and save energy. A certain accumulation of a certain quality and quantity of energy is what brings awakening, enlightenment, liberation. The beginning stages can be verified by oneself. ATA-MT is a beginning, noticing sounds, noticing material objects, noticing tension in the body, facial expression, postures, gestures, colors, shapes. These things have to be practiced and understood to even get to the next barrier, to even find the next barrier. sdp A very simple question comes to my mind. Why should I prop up this "essence" if it is so weak that it loses even against "ego"? Jesus said one should build a house on rock, not on sand. Why should I invest all the energy and effort into "essence"? Today it lost to ego, maybe tomorrow it will lose to something else, so why should I support a loser? On the other hand, I know that ego already won one battle, so shouldn't I rather strenghten ego and prepare it for the next battle? I just profoundly don't understand why I should want anything have to do with this "essence". It betrayed me once already, it seems to me that before I should put any trust into it... rather it should do me a favour, and not the other way around. Essence never did anything good for me, all I know is that if it even exists then it clearly betrayed me, so why on earth should I do anything for it? It seems to me that first it should come to me and apologize and then do something good for me before I should be willing to give it any help. See, I think in very simple terms, like a child almost, but I'm dead serious. While I understand your reaction to the presentation, what underlies it is a general reference to opening yourself up, to making yourself vulnerable. The world is whispering to you. You won't hear it if you're shouting at phantoms.
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