|
Post by silence on Feb 9, 2014 11:52:50 GMT -5
Most people find the rational thought process takes them to an edge, and instead of stopping, they take a 90-degree right turn or left turn and start moving along the edge, thinking horizontally, pulling in more facts and experiences and memories. This is called a waste of time. The only use of thought that has power is a rational process that goes right to the edge of thought, and then stops. It lets something else deliver whatever needs to be delivered chap 3 para 18 That's this forum in a nutshell. Wow, that only took five times to post that.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 9, 2014 12:16:51 GMT -5
Most people find the rational thought process takes them to an edge, and instead of stopping, they take a 90-degree right turn or left turn and start moving along the edge, thinking horizontally, pulling in more facts and experiences and memories. This is called a waste of time. The only use of thought that has power is a rational process that goes right to the edge of thought, and then stops. It lets something else deliver whatever needs to be delivered chap 3 para 18 That's this forum in a nutshell. Wow, that only took five times to post that. Yes, it's a good description of what is meant by TMT, which is not really about conceptual complexity or intelligence. There are smart peeps who know when to stop thinking and those not so intellectually oriented who don't. He talks about it as moving along an edge, which isn't a bad visual. I talk about it as layering thought; thinking about thoughts, concluding about conclusions, at which point genuine insight becomes irrelevant and thinking becomes recursive and banal.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 9, 2014 14:40:11 GMT -5
That's this forum in a nutshell. Wow, that only took five times to post that. Yes, it's a good description of what is meant by TMT, which is not really about conceptual complexity or intelligence. There are smart peeps who know when to stop thinking and those not so intellectually oriented who don't. He talks about it as moving along an edge, which isn't a bad visual. I talk about it as layering thought; thinking about thoughts, concluding about conclusions, at which point genuine insight becomes irrelevant and thinking becomes recursive and banal. Tolle makes a distinction, as I remember, stated as a question: "are you using the mind or is the mind using you?" I don't know the source of this next idea but it goes: "a bird does not fly it is flown, a fish doesn't swim it is swum ... You are not a person living a life, life is living you." So a mind does not think it is thought. Seems to me that this "waste of time", as Ayda refers to it, is just one more of a long line of symptoms of misidentification. When the mental narrative is taken to be what we are, what appears might be described as a sort of self-hypnosis ... a trance. The trance state gives rise to the illusion of the process of the narrative hijacking existence itself. This is the tangled hierarchy of recursion, the chimera of the trap of self-reference. What we sometimes refer to as madness. Niz: When reality explodes in you, you may call it experience of God. Or, rather, it is God experiencing you. God knows you when you know yourself. Reality is not the result of a process; it is an explosion. It is definitely beyond the mind, but all you can do is know your mind well. Not that the mind will help you, but by knowing your mind you may avoid your mind disabling you. You have to be very alert, or else your mind will play false with you. It is like watching a thief -- not that you expect anything from a thief, but you do not want to be robbed. In the same way, you give a lot of attention to the mind without expecting anything from it.
|
|
|
Post by runstill on Feb 9, 2014 16:03:37 GMT -5
Yes, it's a good description of what is meant by TMT, which is not really about conceptual complexity or intelligence. There are smart peeps who know when to stop thinking and those not so intellectually oriented who don't. He talks about it as moving along an edge, which isn't a bad visual. I talk about it as layering thought; thinking about thoughts, concluding about conclusions, at which point genuine insight becomes irrelevant and thinking becomes recursive and banal. Tolle makes a distinction, as I remember, stated as a question: "are you using the mind or is the mind using you?" I don't know the source of this next idea but it goes: "a bird does not fly it is flown, a fish doesn't swim it is swum ... You are not a person living a life, life is living you." So a mind does not think it is thought. Seems to me that this "waste of time", as Ayda refers to it, is just one more of a long line of symptoms of misidentification. When the mental narrative is taken to be what we are, what appears might be described as a sort of self-hypnosis ... a trance. The trance state gives rise to the illusion of the process of the narrative hijacking existence itself. This is the tangled hierarchy of recursion, the chimera of the trap of self-reference. What we sometimes refer to as madness. Niz: When reality explodes in you, you may call it experience of God. Or, rather, it is God experiencing you. God knows you when you know yourself. Reality is not the result of a process; it is an explosion. It is definitely beyond the mind, but all you can do is know your mind well. Not that the mind will help you, but by knowing your mind you may avoid your mind disabling you. You have to be very alert, or else your mind will play false with you. It is like watching a thief -- not that you expect anything from a thief, but you do not want to be robbed. In the same way, you give a lot of attention to the mind without expecting anything from it. Nice.....
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2014 15:07:12 GMT -5
Eggzakly, and that's because the 'comparison' of humble/arrogant doesn't show up at all in the absence of such comparisons. One doesn't become humble, one walks off the humble/arrogant battlefield and lets all the humble and arrogant ones battle it out for themselves. (IMHO).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 15:55:01 GMT -5
may my heart always be open to little birds who are the secrets of living whatever they sing is better than to know and if men should not hear them men are old
may my mind stroll about hungry and fearless and thirsty and supple and even if it’s sunday may i be wrong for whenever men are right they are not young
and may myself do nothing usefully and love yourself so more than truly there’s never been quite such a fool who could fail pulling all the sky over him with one smile
–ee cummings
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 15, 2014 12:25:34 GMT -5
It wasn't a love that was caused by anything. Uncaused as in unconditioned as in unconditional. This is love as a pointer, as there is no opposite to it.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 20, 2014 20:30:09 GMT -5
Matter is anything that can be touched, seen, felt, perceived or thought. A feeling is matter and emotion is matter chap 5 para 2
Part of realization is moving from identification with matter (which manifests as personality, or "me") to identification with spirit. True enlightenment is when matter and spirit are in harmony. We could call this harmony nondifferentiation or oneness. When we realize that we are spirit, there may be a much deeper harmony than there was before that realization, but there can still be some disharmony. So it is helpful to understand the value of exposing ourselves to the teaching, which is the same as exposing ourselves to what is, each and every moment. We need to expose ourselves as we would to the sun if ewe want to get a tan. Instead of putting on clothes, we take them off. If we want to be free, then we don't clothe ourselves with our concepts, ideas, and opinions; we take them off. Then something happens quite by itself. In order to deepen this harmony, we cannot hold on to concepts just like we cannot stay partially dressed and get a full tan. We will not get transformed. But once we are really naked and completely exposed, we can become transformed or awakened in a very natural way. chap 5 para's 4 and 5So here Adya suggests a progression of the sense of identity, and it's what Reefs calls "identity poker". In Adya's version, it's "strip" poker! -- and the only way to win is to lose. To shed all the ideas that we put between ourselves ... and ...
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 22, 2014 21:26:18 GMT -5
When we realize what we are through this harmonization, then what do we do? We keep baking forever. If we stop baking and say, "I got it!" all of a sudden the harmonization of spirit and matter goes out of kilter. It is felt very quickly. As Suzuki Roshi often said, "If you are suffering, you get a little greedy." You need to surrender continually so that harmonization maintains itself. chap 5 para 13
The knife edge of lifeLook long back and mull it over Oh yeah, back then you were in clover everything under control no need to duck, dodge or roll nothing for to understand you had no need for helping hand but right now? oh me oh my and oh so no! so steep, so hot but yet, so slow nothing but a daily grind every week you're more behind for friends you gaze, around and 'round and see only those that look straight down Someday maybe You'll turn that corner Hope it keeps you Sane and warmer Looking forward ever onward So not to feel the knife edge dicing Soles of shoes A slippery icing Just as today a nation pines For those old and rich and bygone times That were certain That were peaceful That were equanimous Just as today a nation whines Fair share for all yeah in those times Just as today then so do you Long to wear those soft old shoes Long to turn the clock today Forward backward any way Any way to turn the day From the now, yes turn away There is an edge An edge to now Ever uncertain Which way to bow? No directions what I say Keep head held high and know the way Is never marked and full of wile As the call to turn the dial Will never fade until you see The fallacy, the trip from be The lie that you are not now free To walk the edge Drop the design That the answer lies somehow in time Take one deep breath and know right here Is where you stand There is no fear But that you make and lead with empty cheer Fill that void with fight oh yes! Put those others to the test! Rend the image Give no rest To those that think that they know best! This will make you whole in eyes That savor all those soft sweet lies The satisfaction of the misery fest Will give your mind sweet place to rest What sees the emptiness as bad? Why with lack desire's had! Just a trick, listen closely In the quiet you will hear Footsteps soft, and oh so near A knife edge walked With balance true leads you away from that not you That past of which you reminisce Is a mirage, it's just a trick! The future that you hold so dear Will ever be just not so clear Will ever be just out of reach Will ever need a soul to preach It glints so blue The edge of steel Walk the line with me today We'll trade a grin no word to say And in each moment finally feel Without pain the knife line real
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 21:57:23 GMT -5
Yes, it's a good description of what is meant by TMT, which is not really about conceptual complexity or intelligence. There are smart peeps who know when to stop thinking and those not so intellectually oriented who don't. He talks about it as moving along an edge, which isn't a bad visual. I talk about it as layering thought; thinking about thoughts, concluding about conclusions, at which point genuine insight becomes irrelevant and thinking becomes recursive and banal. Tolle makes a distinction, as I remember, stated as a question: "are you using the mind or is the mind using you?" I don't know the source of this next idea but it goes: "a bird does not fly it is flown, a fish doesn't swim it is swum ... You are not a person living a life, life is living you." So a mind does not think it is thought. Seems to me that this "waste of time", as Ayda refers to it, is just one more of a long line of symptoms of misidentification. When the mental narrative is taken to be what we are, what appears might be described as a sort of self-hypnosis ... a trance. The trance state gives rise to the illusion of the process of the narrative hijacking existence itself. This is the tangled hierarchy of recursion, the chimera of the trap of self-reference. What we sometimes refer to as madness. Niz: When reality explodes in you, you may call it experience of God. Or, rather, it is God experiencing you. God knows you when you know yourself. Reality is not the result of a process; it is an explosion. It is definitely beyond the mind, but all you can do is know your mind well. Not that the mind will help you, but by knowing your mind you may avoid your mind disabling you. You have to be very alert, or else your mind will play false with you. It is like watching a thief -- not that you expect anything from a thief, but you do not want to be robbed. In the same way, you give a lot of attention to the mind without expecting anything from it. Thats a good Niz quote....though, if you let go of knowing, and let go of wanting to know, there really is not much mind left to observe lol still though, alertness is good :-) Ignorance is not only bliss, its also alive, and powerfully omnipresent
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 23, 2014 15:22:06 GMT -5
When you start to see the light that you really are, the light waking up in you, the radiance, you realize it has no intention to change you. The Truth is the only thing you'll ever run into that has no agenda. Everything else will have an agenda. Everything. That is why the Truth is so powerful. Give up your agendas and continue to expose yourself, and harmonization will naturally occur. chap 5, para 19(** skijump! **)
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2014 22:28:26 GMT -5
Looking at personal issues is like pulling just the top of the weeds out of your lawn: they pop right back up. You may have some relief from the trouble of the day, but the root is still there, totally untouched. But having experiences, even if they clear up problems or offer beautiful insights, is very different from finding the root of what you are. If you don't get to the root, you just get another weed. chap 6 para 4This seems so common a bit of wisdom among conversation junkies like us as to perhaps be a cliché, and the common retort that I’ve seen repeated on two different forums starts with this line of reasoning: “Well, if the person is something that is to be seen through anyway then why improve it? Why add anything to it?” For me, the best answer to this question is: ( __________________________________________________________________) … but of course, the line of reasoning doesn’t stop there, oh no. “Doesn’t this mean that if I want to see the truth of the person that I should stop doing stuff for personal improvement and gain? Doesn’t it mean that if I do see through the person that I won’t have any motivation to do anything anymore?”. … and of course, really, the answer I'm the fondest is, once again: ( __________________________________________________________________) Oh hell, one more sub-optimal answer to this line can’t hurt … I mean … can it?? Tolle makes a useful distinction here: FINDING THE LIFE UNDERNEATH YOUR LIFE SITUATION
Q: I don’t see how I can be free now. As it happens, I am extremely unhappy with my life at the moment. This is a fact, and I would be deluding myself if I tried to convince myself that all is well when nit definitely isn’t. To me, the present moement is very unhappy; it is not liberating at all. What keeps me going is the hope or possibility of some improvement in the future.
You think that your attention is in the present moment when it’s actually taken up completely by time. You cannot be both unhappy and fully present in the Now.
What you refer to as your “life” should more accurately be called your “life situation.” It is psychological time: past and future. Certain things in the past didn’t go the way you wanted them to go. You are still resisting what happened in the past, and now you are resisting what is. Hope is what keeps you going, but hope keeps you focused on the future, and this continued focus perpetuates your denial of the Now and therefore your unhappiness.
Q: It is true that my present life situation is the result of things that happened in the past, but it is still my present situation, and being stuck in it is what makes me unhappy.
Forget about your life situation for a while and pay attention to your life.
Q: What is the difference?
Your life situation exists in time.
Your life is now.
Your life situation is mind-stuff.
Your life is real.
Find the “narrow gate that leads to life.” It is called the Now. Narrow your life down to this moment. Your life situation may be full of problems – most life situations are – but find out if you have any problem at this moment. Not tomorrow or in ten minutes, but now. Do you have a problem now?
When you are full of problems, there is no room for anything new to enter, no room for a solution. So whenever you can, make some room, create some space, so that you find the life underneath your life situation.========== Seems to me that the distinction between life and life situation is one that is of use to someone identified as a person –while on the other hand, when the roots are pulled up, as Ayda suggests, the resistance that Tolle is talking about is no longer there. In either case and in any event, it seems accurate to me to answer the lines of reasoning that lead to the objections to statements similar to what Ayda says with the following: “Life situation goes on”. or, for the purists reading this: “Life situation appears to go on”. However it is experienced or what ever pronouns or absence of pronouns are used to describe the experience, we don’t throw away user manuals before assembling a new piece of furniture. If we suddenly find ourselves on a horse for the first time and someone is kind enough to explain to us how the reigns work we listen. If we do our own taxes we consult the instructions for the forms and we might occasionally read a book or pick up some other new information or take suggestions from friends or consult an expert or teacher on matters that interest us about health or work or home improvement or ... As long as we’re alive there will be this life situation and sometimes it will deteriorate and sometimes it will improve and, regardless of how the experience feels to us, what happens can be described in terms of various personal roles that appear, from an external perspective, to be involved in these movements. The life situation goes on, but none of that touches our life. Tolle goes on to say: Use your senses fully. Be where you are. Look around. Just look, don’t interpret. See the light, shapes colors, textures. Be aware of the silent presence of each thing. Be aware of the space that allows everything to be. Listen to the sounds; don’t judge them. Listen to the silence underneath the sounds. Touch something – anything – and feel and acknowledge it's Being. Observe the rhythm of your breathing; feel the air flowing in and out, feel the life energy inside your body. Allow everything to be, within and without. Allow the “isness” of all things. Move deeply into the Now.
You are leaving behind the deadening world of mental abstraction, of time. You are getting out of the insane mind that is draining you of life energy, just as it is slowly poisoning and destroying the Earth. You are awakening out of the dream of time into the present.
"The Power of Now", chapter 3, para's 55-69
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 26, 2014 0:38:45 GMT -5
I believe the biggest obstacle to letting go of the focus on problems is the belief that the problems will not get solved. In response, I would say ( ).
Just kidding. There are two points I would make:
1) The you that you think you are is not actually the problem solver. That idea actually increases the effort involved and decreases effectiveness. Most have had the experience of getting out of the way and the solution to problems showing up spontaneously (though perhaps they never made the connection).
This doesn't mean active avoidance, which is still interference. So it's necessary to not only stop thinking about problems but also stop running away from them. This may require a certain amount of trust in the innate intelligence that is running your life, and the willingness to admit that perhaps you are not.
2) Since thoughts/feelings are creative, removing your focus on problems can dramatically reduce the number of problems that show up in your life for you to solve.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 26, 2014 12:55:10 GMT -5
The mystery always takes care of itself -- as long as we are not addicted to following concepts. This addiction cuts off your access to the mystery. It's like having a jewel in your pocket but you can't get your hand into the pocket to pull it out. chap 6 para 7 ... here's a question that I find amusing -- if you were to pick out a random person on the street, what are the odds that this person is apparently attempting to live a concept at least part of the time during most of their days?
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Feb 27, 2014 21:38:30 GMT -5
The body-mind cannot dissolve the agenda just because it thinks it's a good idea, but it can happen naturally as beingness sees more and more thoroughly that the only thing that actually exists is itself. It's a visceral thing. Can you start to get the feel of it? There is nothing to hold on to. No viewpoints to hold. No separation. This is why it has always been said that the truth sets you free. But the whole being has to realize the truth. It has to be the truth, knowingly. That's what I mean about the limitation of picking the weeds and the fruit, replacing one thought or illusionary belief with another one, a "better" one. If you put in one self-oriented thought, the mechanism is going to get contradicted. chap 6 para's 12 and 13The truth that leads to freedom not only isn't conceptual but involves a subtle, quiet opening on the part of the individual, through the body, to what these ideas that point away from conceptualization point toward. To conceptualize about these ideas that invite the individual to stop conceptualizing, of course, completely misses the point of them.
|
|