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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2013 12:10:06 GMT -5
'Free will or no free will' can be seen as a misconceived, yes. I can agree that its a good thing to see. The way the word 'volition' was used back there, I'm not really seeing a lot of difference between free will and volition. I wouldn't say free will is illogical though, I would say the notion arises from a sense of there being something that is unconditioned, untouchable, always free. It's illogical or at least questionable when you investigate it a little. And that kind of investigation can be done in less than 2 minutes or so. The real question is, do you want to go there? Some say, no, because I take everything at face value. Some say, yes, because it seems I'm was just operating on an assumption then. Definitely questionable and IMO worth questioning. Don't know about illogical.
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2013 12:19:59 GMT -5
The problem with volition is that on the one hand it feels real, that it's part of being a person. But on the other hand it's utterly illogical that we have free will, that can be seen even from the personal point of view with a little investigation. So, that's good stuff for never-ending debates. However, free will or not is a misconceived question that can be seen clearly and has to be seen clearly before that volition question will stop bugging you. Which brings us back to the topic of taking a step further back, i.e. realization. 'Free will or no free will' can be seen as a misconceived, yes. I can agree that its a good thing to see. The way the word 'volition' was used back there, I'm not really seeing a lot of difference between free will and volition. I wouldn't say free will is illogical though, I would say the notion arises from a sense of there being something that is unconditioned, untouchable, always free. You mean a prior thing?
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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2013 12:23:29 GMT -5
'Free will or no free will' can be seen as a misconceived, yes. I can agree that its a good thing to see. The way the word 'volition' was used back there, I'm not really seeing a lot of difference between free will and volition. I wouldn't say free will is illogical though, I would say the notion arises from a sense of there being something that is unconditioned, untouchable, always free. You mean a prior thing? Kind of. At the least a sense of something that is essential, not subject to conditioning and time.
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2013 12:44:10 GMT -5
Gain? It seems you've misunderstood completely. Non-duality is not about something newly acquired. U.G. is going to tell you the same. Haha...other than a little chuckle at what feels like an inside joke, I could give a rats ass what UG has to say :-) You started a conversation Here by offering an 'important' thing to 'understand' about not knowing my friend...no understanding needs to 'be gained' about 'not knowing' ;-) Whether or not understanding is needed is a different question from whether or not it is present.
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2013 12:50:51 GMT -5
You mean a prior thing? Kind of. At the least a sense of something that is essential, not subject to conditioning and time. But if you set that story aside, you'll see that there's nothing to which free will or volition would apply.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 13:00:46 GMT -5
Haha...other than a little chuckle at what feels like an inside joke, I could give a rats ass what UG has to say :-) You started a conversation here by offering an 'important' thing to 'understand' about not knowing my friend...no understanding needs to 'be gained' about 'not knowing' ;-) As long as you are talking about the benefits of not knowing and how it can be achieved, then I'd say we are firmly grounded in lalaland and in that context there's some important understanding lacking, indeed. Opinions are like _____________.
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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2013 13:08:26 GMT -5
Kind of. At the least a sense of something that is essential, not subject to conditioning and time. But if you set that story aside, you'll see that there's nothing to which free will or volition would apply. Yes, it is possible to see that.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2013 13:16:46 GMT -5
Yes, it really comes down to volition doesn't it. The belief in personal will is like a scaffolding - once it's there, all sorts of construction gets built on it. I can see where it's hard to let go of, because the building of beliefs just collapses. Then, where do you go to figure out what to do? Quite unsettling. Be that as it may, there's a practical side, too. Choices are made and experience influences choices. Part of experience is the relationship between people and our influences on each other. That's all happening, too. I don't see 'no volition' as an excuse for negative or destructive behavior. It can be pointed out, but with a light touch and the understanding that a body's gonna do what a body's gonna do. Yes, sooner or later it's about volition again. However, the question of free will or not is misconceived and basically a straw man giraffe. So debating it is a recipe for getting irretrivably lost in minding. It's more about taking a step back instead of taking everything at face value. That's where realization comes in again. When that has happened, existential questions about volition and purpose and such or how to live in the world take care of themselves. Yer just an evil abusive flamer who doesn't like people and wants to take their stuff away. Shame on you.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2013 13:18:02 GMT -5
As long as you are talking about the benefits of not knowing and how it can be achieved, then I'd say we are firmly grounded in lalaland and in that context there's some important understanding lacking, indeed. Opinions are like _____________. ... well, whatever you were referring to ... everyone's got one of 'em!
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Post by silence on Dec 7, 2013 13:29:24 GMT -5
"Be selfish and stay selfish, that is my message" -UG Haha....funny you quoting UG after what you wrote in the other thread. See what you can find regarding what UG has said about knowing and not knowing....I was never a UG fan until knowing gave way to not Knowing, now I feel like I am sharing a naughty secret with him every time I hear or see his words :-)) Heh Awkward.
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Post by silence on Dec 7, 2013 13:30:14 GMT -5
Greetings.. That UG cannot experience the natural stillness inherent with the mind's processes, is further evidence of his 'knowing' while imagining that 'believing' in 'not knowing' is the same as not knowing.. not knowing is an imagined fantasy, the experiencer cannot empty the contents of their existence.. what the experiencer can do is understand the interconnected relevance of their existence, the experiencer can cultivate a conscious awareness of the relevance of clarity.. There's no way to avoid 'knowing', but knowing can be set aside by allowing the natural stillness of the mind to emerge.. with the alert clarity of a still mind's perception, the incessant talking about beliefs and gurus ceases and mind is free to experience what is actually happening, rather than the 'talk about' what people 'think' is happening.. there seems to be a willingness to 'talk' about beliefs, rather than allowing stillness to reveal what is actually happening.. A still mind's clarity reveals the illusory nature of so much that is bantered relentlessly on this forum.. to the meaning taken from Peter's relevant and timely post, opposing beliefs presented in relentless variations of the same right/wrong theme, reveal the co-dependent nature of the participants, each deriving their self-image from the other.. in the same way, conflicting beliefs like non-duality/duality and oneness/manyness represent co-dependent relationships that vanish when it is realized that the dependency is what feeds the illusion.. when the experiencer lets go of the dependence on the belief for their identity, the illusion and the belief vanish.. It is possible to to discuss what is actually happening, without depending on a particular belief to create the illusion that one experiencer's experience is superior to another's.. in the absence of trying to fit the discussion about an experience into a particular belief structure, there is the much more likely opportunity for agreement, but.. in agreement, there is the fear that the co-dependency will dissolve and the believer's claim of superiority will be neutralized.. Like 'Schrodinger's Cat', the believer's imagined superiority is still valid in their own mind as long as there is a disagreement.. so, great conflicts are created to ensure the survival of a belief in the believer's superiority.. absurd claims will be made, with intricate mind-play and word-games that create the illusion of a misunderstanding to be 'mentored', but.. what is mentored is the conflict itself, carefully cultivated to the believer's advantage.. That is why, at the most fundamental level, the believers cannot let go.. they will consistently find something to cling to that ensures controversy and conflict, without it they are lost.. liberation means being equal with existence, rather than superior to it.. hence the belief models of 'truth' vs not agreeing with the believer's 'truth'.. Be well.. Sweet still mind beliefs man.
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Post by silence on Dec 7, 2013 13:31:41 GMT -5
Perhaps a little too psychological for some of our readership, but I think that motivations somewhere on a scale from a wish to help others right up to a full blown messiah complex can be seen at work on this forum, so I thought this article was relevant when I came across it. Dam. I hit back space instead of enter... lost my awesome post. Back when the forum was having major issues, I started copy/paste my posts before hitting post. It's now a habit.
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Post by silence on Dec 7, 2013 13:46:32 GMT -5
Let yourself be silently drawn by the strange pull of what you really love. It will not lead you astray. -Rumi I usually get a stomach ache and an empty box of cookies.
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Post by silence on Dec 7, 2013 13:48:53 GMT -5
It's illogical or at least questionable when you investigate it a little. And that kind of investigation can be done in less than 2 minutes or so. The real question is, do you want to go there? Some say, no, because I take everything at face value. Some say, yes, because it seems I'm was just operating on an assumption then. Definitely questionable and IMO worth questioning. Don't know about illogical. Logic is a funny thing. Everyone has the capability to form their own system of logic to the effect where they can justify and perceive just about anything to make sense. This was amazingly obvious watching schizophrenics who could form complex explanations to make their delusions fit perfectly into 'flawless logic'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 14:30:14 GMT -5
Let yourself be silently drawn by the strange pull of what you really love. It will not lead you astray. -Rumi I usually get a stomach ache and an empty box of cookies. Stay away from my Pfeffernusses
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