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Post by magnesio on Nov 29, 2013 17:37:55 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself.
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2013 18:00:07 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself. Hey magnesio, first off, welcome to the ST.org discussion forum. My guess is that you'll find some agreement with some facets of what you've written among the membership here. I moved it out of the "Spiritual Teachers" section because it's not about any one specific teaching or teacher, but seems to me to be rather a discussion of spiritual teaching in general. |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 29, 2013 19:41:24 GMT -5
Greetings..
Welcome to the Forum, Magnesio.. largely, i agree with your understanding, though i also understand that by allowing the mind to observe and experience through the clarity emerging from a still mind's awareness, it is possible to interact with teachers/teachings without being dominated by their beliefs.. it is possible, if the parties, teachers included, are sincerely interested, to interact with teachers and teachings when the intention is to see/experience what is actually happening.. it is the unwillingness to let go of or revise beliefs when it is revealed that those beliefs are inconsistent with what is actually happening, that creates conflicts..
I do not "have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings" to move freely through the 'Spiritual Circus' and see/experience with clarity.. if one is so intimidated by teachers/teachings that they feel like they have to "stay alone", they are no more free than those attached to the beliefs of the teachers and teachings.. 'staying alone' is not the "only way", though it may be the 'way' that works for 'you'..
We are all teachers, in as much as we affect others, in some greater of lesser way, simply by interacting with them.. even you are trying to 'teach' that teachers should be avoided.. i wish you well on your adventure here at SpiritualTeachers.org but, you do realize that you have come to a forum liberally populated with those you say should be avoided, right?
Be well..
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Post by acewall on Nov 29, 2013 21:33:02 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself. welcome Magnesio, brilliant you came. teachers have been the problem, sure. Just who gave 'em authority; glorious in their assumptions not only do they drown in obscurity, they fail in originality. 'We don't need no education' but sharing goes along-way!  |
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Post by earnest on Nov 29, 2013 22:49:59 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself. interesting idea,.. but not my experience on the whole. I've come across what I see as dodgy teachers or teachings, but they've been easy enough to avoid and weren't an impediment. I did get a bit waylaid by "personal development" though. The place I did some courses with ended up getting shut down after a past participant jumped off a building... What problems have teachers caused you? |
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Post by lolly on Nov 30, 2013 0:23:44 GMT -5
If you are a student you'll find a teacher, and vice versa. It's merely a way to retain self image. I think most importantly, the self image should also be esteemed. What I see as problematic with the relationship that validates the teacher and student, is the student may feel as though they are lesser as an individual compared with their idealized image of the teacher. That's not indicative of an esteemed self image.
Many self painted teachers take advantage of that 'lesser' and use it to tip the balance of power in their own favour, which the student accepts as true through the lesser/greater paradigm, and the teacher begins to lead the student into the teachers ways or belief.
In my case, I met like a hundred self proclaimed enlightened ones but I also noticed that being enlightened does not mean a person has the skill set required to be of any actual assistance, and often, I noticed quite unethical behaviours that disempowered people or even harmed them...
Anyone who has a genuine intention to assist another person takes a non-judgmental approach, takes care not to impose their own beliefs and values and supports them in their own decisions with a view to empowerment.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 30, 2013 6:46:38 GMT -5
There was a great mathematician named Ramanujan who great up in a small village in India. As he grew up he reinvented a great deal of whole of mathematics. Eventually because of his mathematical proclivity he became known by others and later came to the attention of GH Hardy. He was brought to Great Britain where he continued work and study. It became apparent that if he had grown up where he could have been schooled in math, he would not have wasted years inventing math that already existed, he could have used those years pushing the limits of mathematics, expanding what was known.
For you, a teacher is simply one who knows more than you. Do you think it better not to have read a single word about spirituality and the spiritual journey? Do you think it better to have to invent the "wheel", again, after it has already been invented......by someone else?
Because there are bad teachers does not mean that there are no good teachers. The purpose of a teacher is to make his or her self superfluous, unnecessary.....to get you to the point where you move ahead on your own.....even more, where you have to move ahead on your own (IOW, a teacher will at some point, if necessary, push you out of the nest).
But, ultimately, the burden is upon you. You have to recognize when something important is said (or read), you have to recognize a teaching.......
.........and, you and everyone else has to recognize either the accuracy or inaccuracy of your OP.......
In the beginning, you don't even know how to look at your own mind in the most effective manner............
sdp
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2013 14:51:19 GMT -5
I agree with SDP. Although there are some fakes and frauds (in every field of endeavor), most of the well-known ND teachers tell people to look within themselves and give them advice about what that admonition means. Many people waste years and years searching for the truth using the mind, and trying to think their way to the truth. Teachers point to what is beyond the mind but includes it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 15:16:43 GMT -5
I agree with SDP. Although there are some fakes and frauds (in every field of endeavor), most of the well-known ND teachers tell people to look within themselves and give them advice about what that admonition means. Many people waste years and years searching for the truth using the mind, and trying to think their way to the truth. Teachers point to what is beyond the mind but includes it. In the big scheme of things, I have trouble with the idea that any part of the 'journey' could ever actually be 'a waste.' Who knows; what appears from your position of looking on, as a 'waste' might have been an integral and necessary part of the equation for the one experiencing that 'search for truth using the mind, and trying to think their way to the truth.'...a sort of 'ripening.' I guess if the only goal is 'beyond mind' then anything else will appear as a 'waste.' But as it see, there is validity and value in ALL experience....even one where there is searching and lots of mind engagement. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 15:24:57 GMT -5
If you are a student you'll find a teacher, and vice versa. It's merely a way to retain self image. I think most importantly, the self image should also be esteemed. What I see as problematic with the relationship that validates the teacher and student, is the student may feel as though they are lesser as an individual compared with their idealized image of the teacher. That's not indicative of an esteemed self image. Many self painted teachers take advantage of that 'lesser' and use it to tip the balance of power in their own favour, which the student accepts as true through the lesser/greater paradigm, and the teacher begins to lead the student into the teachers ways or belief. In my case, I met like a hundred self proclaimed enlightened ones but I also noticed that being enlightened does not mean a person has the skill set required to be of any actual assistance, and often, I noticed quite unethical behaviours that disempowered people or even harmed them... Anyone who has a genuine intention to assist another person takes a non-judgmental approach, takes care not to impose their own beliefs and values and supports them in their own decisions with a view to empowerment. I agree with all you are saying there. The very fact that someone calls themselves 'a teacher' should be cause for a measured approach on the part of one who is considering themselves 'a student.' I personally see a few possible misconceptions inherent In the very designation of oneself as "spiritual teacher." One being the idea that spirituality, as it relates to life and freedom, is something one can be an expert about, (in the sense that they are equipt to guide others to 'the way.') Seems to be an assumption there that ' their way' is ' the way.' And that in my estimation, requires a fair bit or arrogance. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 15:40:27 GMT -5
'We don't need no education' but sharing goes along-way! Yes, i agree. Great value in the sharing.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 18:59:16 GMT -5
A teacher can help you save time, but thats about it....a good teacher in this subject matter does not teach what is or is not there, they show you a better way of looking and seeing for your self.
Like ZD alluded to, this can be very helpful, without a teacher saying something like "look at the mind" instead of "looking with the mind" years can be spent before a realization occurs wherein on 'steps back' to look at mind instead of looking for answers 'with the mind'.
As an aside, Osho had a good quote that went something like:
"Whatsoever you imagine your teacher to be like, you will be suprised that they are not what you expected at all, because a good teacher will never let you stay in th pattern of the expected."
The best teachers 'shift' your perspective away from your status quo. They will always want to help you shift away from the habitual way of your life.
if your teacher is exactly what you expected, they are probably not the right teacher for you ;-)
A good teacher in this area will rarely pander to your beliefs or expectations.
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 30, 2013 22:28:37 GMT -5
Greetings.. A teacher can help you save time, but thats about it....a good teacher in this subject matter does not teach what is or is not there, they show you a better way of looking and seeing for your self. Like ZD alluded to, this can be very helpful, without a teacher saying something like "look at the mind" instead of "looking with the mind" years can be spent before a realization occurs wherein on 'steps back' to look at mind instead of looking for answers 'with the mind'. As an aside, Osho had a good quote that went something like: "Whatsoever you imagine your teacher to be like, you will be suprised that they are not what you expected at all, because a good teacher will never let you stay in th pattern of the expected." The best teachers 'shift' your perspective away from your status quo. They will always want to help you shift away from the habitual way of your life. if your teacher is exactly what you expected, they are probably not the right teacher for you ;-) A good teacher in this area will rarely pander to your beliefs or expectations. And, as ZD points to: I'm not certain, but i suspect that the " this subject matter" that you refer to is the same as ZD's "ND" (non-duality).. it sounds great, to tell people to 'look within', to 'see for yourself', but.. rarely do you find the ND/Oneness teacher with that degree of clarity, if the 'student' doesn't arrive at the same conclusions/beliefs as the ND/Oneness teachings, there are additional efforts to "shift" the student's perspective into conformity with the ND/Oneness beliefs.. What is " beyond the mind" can only be made known or realized through the mind's interaction/experience with 'it'.. sure, there's a romanticized guru-esque mystique about beliefs presented/taught this way, 'beyond the mind'/'ineffable', but there is a fundamental distrust of the 'teaching' when the student actually arrives at their own conclusion, and the conclusion does not agree with the teacher's beliefs.. the teacher's say they want you to 'see for yourself', but they want you to see what they see, too.. and, if you don't, well.. Enjoy the Forum, it doesn't take long for the processes to reveal themselves.. for instance, regarding 'teachers' of 'this subject matter': " They will always want to help you shift away from the habitual way of your life.", even if the 'habitual way' is unattached clarity or deep and abiding contentment derived from the ability to see/experience what is actually happening.. the 'way' to clarity, and therefore deep and abiding contentment, is a single choice away.. Be well.. |
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Post by silence on Nov 30, 2013 23:09:46 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself. Spiritual teachers are the appetizer while people flirt with the notion of being honest with themselves. Kind of like listening to a guy giving a speech about time shares. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 23:36:07 GMT -5
teachers are the problem. you cant know yourself when you obey to authority. you believe what they say and that believing prevents you from seeing what is going on in your own mind. nobody can dictate what is true or false. you have to stay alone rejecting all teachers. all teachings. thats the only way for you to feel free to look without bias, prejudice. without knowing. only from a mind which lives in not knowing can truth reveal itself. Hey magnesio, there really isn't a problem with anything, including apparent teachers. Most non-duality teachers make the fundamental misconception that there is an actual separate person that can achieve enlightenment. Of course a separate person is illusory, lacks choice, free will and volition. It's like trying to teach a night time dream character that it can find enlightenment...it is a nonsense. There is a message that is too simple for most to get and that is there is just THIS, just What's Happening, but it's not Happening to a Me, a You, an I, or a Self... THIS can't be taught, it's too simple, so the mind looks to the next moment that might have something more in it. And that is the value of teachers, they are there to give you more, a gift of meditation, or Clarity, or Silence, or Attending, or Walking off the Battlefield... It is a nonsense...  |
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