perception and illusion (no attack thread)

[Deleted]

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

[stardustpilgrim]

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

See my posts on The Unacceptable thread. Ego/personality/false self/cultural self is a distorting filter that allows in only what corresponds to itself. To see what's what you have to cease to say "I" to ego/personality/false self/cultural self. There is no seer who sees, only seeing. You must become the witness to life's parade. We all want to be in the parade. You have to become the witness while in the parade. Not so easy. What's simple is not easy.

sdp

[zendancer]

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

Autumn: The world is what it is--a unified field of being--, and young children are not psychologically separate from it. As they grow older, they distinguish (imagine) what they see as separate things existing in space and time. They are taught the names of things, and how things interact. After they acquire language and a certain level of intellectual functionality, they spend more and more time thinking ABOUT the world and about themselves, as separate entities. The illusion of self-and-other is so powerful that they almost never suspect that something priceless was lost when attention gradually shifted away from the direct perception of "what is" to thoughts.

Adults spend a huge percentage of their time thinking and talking to themselves mentally, and most of them are unable to discern how attention shifts back and forth between direct perception (seeing, hearing, feeling, etc) and thoughts throughout each day. We could say that most adults spend most of their time imagining, and that imagining is an unconscious practice/activity.

So-called "spiritual" practices are practices that shift attention away from thoughts, or shift attention into a mode of watching thoughts as they appear and disappear. Mantras, breath awareness meditation, body awareness practices (tai chi, yoga, etc), ATA, shikan taza, and all similar practices create some mental distance, or space, so that thoughts can be recognized as abstractions ABOUT the world rather than the world, itself. As the mind/intellect loses dominance and beliefs are seen through, people discover that they were living in a kind of trancestate dominated by ideas about the past or future.

Who we REALLY are--the living field of all being--is intelligent, and it can wake up to itself. It is the only thing here, and It, alone, acts. (In a deeper sense, It doesn't even act; It does nothing because there is nothing separate from It.) Who we think we are is imaginary, and becoming free of the sense of imaginary separateness is what we call Self-realization. The journey from the trancestate of "the ten-thousand things" to pure isness can occur suddenly or over a long period of time, but in general it is the journey that leads from thinking ABOUT "what is what" to the realization that what one IS IS what is what.

[tzujanli]

Greetings..

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

In practice, i keep paying attention to what is happening without attaching to the happening or what i 'think about' the happening.. attachment takes the form of 'stories about' the happening..

Be well..

[Deleted]

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

My choice is to name it God, my experience I have named Grace. 



But my 'practice', is to 'not know'.


its a 'practice' that doesn't take much practice though lol


'Narrowing' into knowing has its place and value, else it wouldn't appear, but most (but no all) here at this forum are on a quest of expansion and inclusion, not narrowing and defining.






recognizing 'what is what' is 'narrowing' of consciousness, not an 'expanding'.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2013 19:21:50 GMT -5 @stevenc said:

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

My choice is to name it God, my experience I have named Grace. 

But my 'practice', is to 'not know'.


its a 'practice' that doesn't take much practice though lol

recognizing 'what is what' is something that the mind does to compound experience and creativity.

ever dealt with an adolescent .. where the adult sees they are about to make a dumb decision/run into trouble?
"but you don't know!" the kid cries out ... and its true, you don't know the exact facts about whatever the situation is/who the players are .. but the adult has "been there, done that", so to speak, as have countless of other generations throughout time.

words are practically useless in those situations. experience is the only way for the kid to learn...

[enigma]

Nov 10, 2013 17:12:11 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Nov 8, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

What is it?

In practise how do you go about recognising what is what?

Autumn: The world is what it is--a unified field of being--, and young children are not psychologically separate from it. As they grow older, they distinguish (imagine) what they see as separate things existing in space and time. They are taught the names of things, and how things interact. After they acquire language and a certain level of intellectual functionality, they spend more and more time thinking ABOUT the world and about themselves, as separate entities. The illusion of self-and-other is so powerful that they almost never suspect that something priceless was lost when attention gradually shifted away from the direct perception of "what is" to thoughts.

Adults spend a huge percentage of their time thinking and talking to themselves mentally, and most of them are unable to discern how attention shifts back and forth between direct perception (seeing, hearing, feeling, etc) and thoughts throughout each day. We could say that most adults spend most of their time imagining, and that imagining is an unconscious practice/activity.

So-called "spiritual" practices are practices that shift attention away from thoughts, or shift attention into a mode of watching thoughts as they appear and disappear. Mantras, breath awareness meditation, body awareness practices (tai chi, yoga, etc), ATA, shikan taza, and all similar practices create some mental distance, or space, so that thoughts can be recognized as abstractions ABOUT the world rather than the world, itself. As the mind/intellect loses dominance and beliefs are seen through, people discover that they were living in a kind of trancestate dominated by ideas about the past or future.

Who we REALLY are--the living field of all being--is intelligent, and it can wake up to itself. It is the only thing here, and It, alone, acts. (In a deeper sense, It doesn't even act; It does nothing because there is nothing separate from It.) Who we think we are is imaginary, and becoming free of the sense of imaginary separateness is what we call Self-realization. The journey from the trancestate of "the ten-thousand things" to pure isness can occur suddenly or over a long period of time, but in general it is the journey that leads from thinking ABOUT "what is what" to the realization that what one IS IS what is what.

"what one IS IS what is what."

Can I quote you on that?
Serially, good stuff.

[Deleted]

There is sensory perception... the noticing of sights/sounds/smells/tastes and sensory feeling. There is also mental perception... from the interpretation to the inner meanings given to what would otherwise be a purely sensory experience. Illusion is an abstract noun that best describes the experience of noticing that something is not as it appears.

In adults, mental perception tends to be the main point of focus.. but with no comparative it can go unrecognised for what it is. So as a practise, focussing on sensory perception can help a person develop awareness of mental perception. In situations when one isn't sure, or is confused or 'in a fog' as somebody called it... the simple way is to discern where one is, is to ask what is sensory (what have you actually seen/hear etc) and in doing so, what is mental perception becomes clearer.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

There is sensory perception... the noticing of sights/sounds/smells/tastes and sensory feeling. There is also mental perception... from the interpretation to the inner meanings given to what would otherwise be a purely sensory experience. Illusion is an abstract noun that best describes the experience of noticing that something is not as it appears.

In adults, mental perception tends to be the main point of focus.. but with no comparative it can go unrecognised for what it is. So as a practise, focussing on sensory perception can help a person develop awareness of mental perception. In situations when one isn't sure, or is confused or 'in a fog' as somebody called it... the simple way is to discern where one is, is to ask what is sensory (what have you actually seen/hear etc) and in doing so, what is mental perception becomes clearer.

Seems like illusion may or may not be noticed. Once it is noticed it likely disappears. If not noticed, one will continue to take it as not an illusion.

Is there a fundamental difference between illusion and perception? Seems to me that even the clearest perception is still just a pattern formed from connecting the sensory dots.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 12:37:44 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Nov 12, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

There is sensory perception... the noticing of sights/sounds/smells/tastes and sensory feeling. There is also mental perception... from the interpretation to the inner meanings given to what would otherwise be a purely sensory experience. Illusion is an abstract noun that best describes the experience of noticing that something is not as it appears.

In adults, mental perception tends to be the main point of focus.. but with no comparative it can go unrecognised for what it is. So as a practise, focussing on sensory perception can help a person develop awareness of mental perception. In situations when one isn't sure, or is confused or 'in a fog' as somebody called it... the simple way is to discern where one is, is to ask what is sensory (what have you actually seen/hear etc) and in doing so, what is mental perception becomes clearer.

Seems like illusion may or may not be noticed. Once it is noticed it likely disappears. If not noticed, one will continue to take it as not an illusion.

Is there a fundamental difference between illusion and perception? Seems to me that even the clearest perception is still just a pattern formed from connecting the sensory dots.

Yes. This is why it best describes the experience of noticing = if we never experienced that moment, then the word wouldn't have been created.

One can be aware of perception and that doesn't change it. But illusion is the awareness of the change between not being concious of and being conscious of. 

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 12:49:49 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

Nov 12, 2013 12:37:44 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Seems like illusion may or may not be noticed. Once it is noticed it likely disappears. If not noticed, one will continue to take it as not an illusion.

Is there a fundamental difference between illusion and perception? Seems to me that even the clearest perception is still just a pattern formed from connecting the sensory dots.

Yes. This is why it best describes the experience of noticing = if we never experienced that moment, then the word wouldn't have been created.

One can be aware of perception and that doesn't change it. But illusion is the awareness of the change between not being concious of and being conscious of. 

Disillusioned has such a bad rap. It means what you are saying, going from unconscious perception of illusions to conscious perception of illusion. It's interesting that it has such negative connotations. Plato's prisoners being led from the cave were massively disillusioned.

edit: When I get my Enlightened cert., one of my bestsellers will be Disillusioned in 5 Minutes.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

There is sensory perception... the noticing of sights/sounds/smells/tastes and sensory feeling. There is also mental perception... from the interpretation to the inner meanings given to what would otherwise be a purely sensory experience. Illusion is an abstract noun that best describes the experience of noticing that something is not as it appears.

In adults, mental perception tends to be the main point of focus.. but with no comparative it can go unrecognised for what it is. So as a practise, focussing on sensory perception can help a person develop awareness of mental perception. In situations when one isn't sure, or is confused or 'in a fog' as somebody called it... the simple way is to discern where one is, is to ask what is sensory (what have you actually seen/hear etc) and in doing so, what is mental perception becomes clearer.

Sensory perception IS mental perception, only imagination separates the two.

Even science knows that these days ;-)

[Deleted]

Steve, the definitions I've used aren't said with scientific back up. However, in terms of practising living with a healthy outlook, they work.

Whatever the individual definition, it is always whether it works for the individual in a practical way that is applicable to everyday life, that gives it legs so to speak.

[enigma]

Nov 12, 2013 12:49:49 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

Nov 12, 2013 12:37:44 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Seems like illusion may or may not be noticed. Once it is noticed it likely disappears. If not noticed, one will continue to take it as not an illusion.

Is there a fundamental difference between illusion and perception? Seems to me that even the clearest perception is still just a pattern formed from connecting the sensory dots.

Yes. This is why it best describes the experience of noticing = if we never experienced that moment, then the word wouldn't have been created.

One can be aware of perception and that doesn't change it. But illusion is the awareness of the change between not being concious of and being conscious of. 

Max is saying that illusions are still illusions whether they are ever recognized as such or not. As such, it is not the experience of noticing it, which is more like being disillusioned.

[enigma]

Nov 12, 2013 13:07:21 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Nov 12, 2013 12:49:49 GMT -5 @autumnleaf said:

Yes. This is why it best describes the experience of noticing = if we never experienced that moment, then the word wouldn't have been created.

One can be aware of perception and that doesn't change it. But illusion is the awareness of the change between not being concious of and being conscious of. 

Disillusioned has such a bad rap. It means what you are saying, going from unconscious perception of illusions to conscious perception of illusion. It's interesting that it has such negative connotations. Plato's prisoners being led from the cave were massively disillusioned.

edit: When I get my Enlightened cert., one of my bestsellers will be Disillusioned in 5 Minutes.

Yes, kinda interesting. It seems to imply we don't like it when the truth invades our fantasies, which is true, but one would think we would be hesitant to admit that we prefer illusions over truth.