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Post by zendancer on Oct 26, 2013 18:27:55 GMT -5
Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true, and what are the issues surrounding the idea of greed?
Warren Buffett is the third richest person in the world, but he's leaving 99% of his personal wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help eradicate disease and help people who live in poverty. Is Buffett greedy? Well, he's lived in the same house for more than fifty years (for which he paid $40,000). His tastes are reportedly quite modest, and his honesty, integrity, fairness, and kindness are legendary. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, probably employs a million people, directly or indirectly. He just happens to be a financial genius who loves investing in businesses. A recent book about Buffett is titled "Tap Dancing Through Life" because Buffett has described his work as a form of enjoyable play. He loves what he does, and is highly successful at it, but to him it is like a game. Is his accumulation of personal wealth a sign of greed if he isn't attached to it and if he's going to give almost all of it to charity when he dies? Buffett isn't enlightened (because he thinks he's a person), but he's happy, content, and doesn't seem to worry about anything more than the unfairness of the American tax system (he thinks that wealthy people should pay a lot more taxes than they currently do).
I have met numerous enlightened people, and not one of them seems interested in personal aggrandizement. Some of them are poor, and some of them have considerable personal wealth, but those who have considerable wealth not one of them seems attached to it. From what I've seen, the single biggest joy of enlightened people is pointing people to the truth of who they really are.
Eckhart Tolle is often criticized by people writing on spiritual websites because he has written several best-selling books, his website is highly commercialized, and people assume that he has amassed a fortune. If it has gone into his bank account, what has he done with the money? No one really knows, but he seems like a very unassuming fellow, and it is hard to imagine that he has any interest in accumulating either a lot of money or a lot of stuff. Like Buffett, Tolle seems to enjoy what he does, and what he does is write and teach about non-duality. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that Tolle is not greedy.
I think Adya, Gangaji, and several other non-duality teachers have foundations that were set up by their followers to support the teachings, and are also used for prison ministries and other charitable activities. I have never heard anyone report any activity by these teachers that could be interpreted as greedy. There are a few gurus, like Cohen, who have done questionable things, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
Greed is usually a result of egocentric desire, so in this sense desiring to get into heaven exhibits more greed than what Buffett does. The crazy Muslim zealot who blows up himself and others to advance his religion, so that he'll be rewarded with 42 virgins in heaven, is about as greedy as it gets. A lot can be written about this subject, but maybe these few lines can get the ball rolling so that people might consider the idea of greed from a somewhat deeper perspective.
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Post by enigma on Oct 26, 2013 19:11:43 GMT -5
Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true, and what are the issues surrounding the idea of greed? Warren Buffett is the third richest person in the world, but he's leaving 99% of his personal wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help eradicate disease and help people who live in poverty. Is Buffett greedy? Well, he's lived in the same house for more than fifty years (for which he paid $40,000). His tastes are reportedly quite modest, and his honesty, integrity, fairness, and kindness are legendary. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, probably employs a million people, directly or indirectly. He just happens to be a financial genius who loves investing in businesses. A recent book about Buffett is titled "Tap Dancing Through Life" because Buffett has described his work as a form of enjoyable play. He loves what he does, and is highly successful at it, but to him it is like a game. Is his accumulation of personal wealth a sign of greed if he isn't attached to it and if he's going to give almost all of it to charity when he dies? Buffett isn't enlightened (because he thinks he's a person), but he's happy, content, and doesn't seem to worry about anything more than the unfairness of the American tax system (he thinks that wealthy people should pay a lot more taxes than they currently do). I have met numerous enlightened people, and not one of them seems interested in personal aggrandizement. Some of them are poor, and some of them have considerable personal wealth, but those who have considerable wealth not one of them seems attached to it. From what I've seen, the single biggest joy of enlightened people is pointing people to the truth of who they really are. Eckhart Tolle is often criticized by people writing on spiritual websites because he has written several best-selling books, his website is highly commercialized, and people assume that he has amassed a fortune. If it has gone into his bank account, what has he done with the money? No one really knows, but he seems like a very unassuming fellow, and it is hard to imagine that he has any interest in accumulating either a lot of money or a lot of stuff. Like Buffett, Tolle seems to enjoy what he does, and what he does is write and teach about non-duality. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that Tolle is not greedy. I think Adya, Gangaji, and several other non-duality teachers have foundations that were set up by their followers to support the teachings, and are also used for prison ministries and other charitable activities. I have never heard anyone report any activity by these teachers that could be interpreted as greedy. There are a few gurus, like Cohen, who have done questionable things, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Greed is usually a result of egocentric desire, so in this sense desiring to get into heaven exhibits more greed than what Buffett does. The crazy Muslim zealot who blows up himself and others to advance his religion, so that he'll be rewarded with 42 virgins in heaven, is about as greedy as it gets. A lot can be written about this subject, but maybe these few lines can get the ball rolling so that people might consider the idea of greed from a somewhat deeper perspective. Gnaw. |
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Post by acewall on Oct 26, 2013 19:24:53 GMT -5
greed is associated with taking
not giving...
enlightenment is knowing the difference
ps, ZENdy,
does Freejoy remind you of your wife?
Is she enlightened too?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 5:26:16 GMT -5
I don't believe that those who have found fame through their apparent 'enlightenment' are greedy. Tolle learned something that he found helpful to get him out of the rut that he was in, and he seems to believe that sharing what helped him, will help others too.
But he is an author of self-help books that help those who have found themselves in a similar position in life as Tolle himself did. He is enlightened of his particular problem, and those who share the problem may enlighten themselves of it too, by reading.
Where spiritual teaching media is misleading, is when it is seen or sold as something more godly or masterful than self help advice. For some it might be about making money their success criteria, for others it might be about being respected, highly regarded or well known in their community.
Warren Buffett, seems to enjoy the thrill of making money more than having money. People enjoy success, and view success in different ways. But the aspect of enlightenment that he shows, is not what he does with his money, but his honesty about liking the game he plays. I'm not sure that Tolle has reached that level of honesty yet.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 7:36:47 GMT -5
Gnaw what? WB isn't greedy? Based on what, the information above? I understand Warren comes across like a warm n fuzzy uncle with his deprecating humor and innate charm, but there are other stories out there which perhaps would shine a different light on the octogenarian billionaire. Bill Gates as well. Those type fortunes don't come without some skeletons in the closet. Most of us have multiple heads like the mythological Hydra, don't we? |
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 27, 2013 8:23:28 GMT -5
Greetings..
I enjoyed the OP's intended message and favor the intention, but.. the misconceived diversion is the beliefs being supported through the message, 'enlightenment and non-duality' are intermediaries and distractions between the experiencer and the experiencer's existence.. when the experiencer lets go of the ideologies like enlightenment and non-duality there is no doubt or question about what is appropriate, it is the conflicting beliefs that distort the clarity that reveals to the experiencer like Warren Buffet the appropriateness of giving the wealth he acquired back to those he acquired it from.. i don't know WB's story, but i am familiar with others whose lives were lived as ruthless business ninjas, right up and until they 'got it'.. the transformation brings me to tears of joy, to see a 'ruthless business ninja' transform into an altruistic champion for the oppressed and abused..
Many paths will get you 'there', but once 'there' the paths have no meaning.. the transformation is always a single choice away..
Be well..
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2013 10:16:16 GMT -5
Gnaw what? WB isn't greedy? Based on what, the information above? I understand Warren comes across like a warm n fuzzy uncle with his deprecating humor and innate charm, but there are other stories out there which perhaps would shine a different light on the octogenarian billionaire. Bill Gates as well. Those type fortunes don't come without some skeletons in the closet. Most of us have multiple heads like the mythological Hydra, don't we? I was responding to this question: "Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true" |
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2013 10:43:53 GMT -5
Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true, and what are the issues surrounding the idea of greed? Warren Buffett is the third richest person in the world, but he's leaving 99% of his personal wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help eradicate disease and help people who live in poverty. Is Buffett greedy? Well, he's lived in the same house for more than fifty years (for which he paid $40,000). His tastes are reportedly quite modest, and his honesty, integrity, fairness, and kindness are legendary. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, probably employs a million people, directly or indirectly. He just happens to be a financial genius who loves investing in businesses. A recent book about Buffett is titled "Tap Dancing Through Life" because Buffett has described his work as a form of enjoyable play. He loves what he does, and is highly successful at it, but to him it is like a game. Is his accumulation of personal wealth a sign of greed if he isn't attached to it and if he's going to give almost all of it to charity when he dies? Buffett isn't enlightened (because he thinks he's a person), but he's happy, content, and doesn't seem to worry about anything more than the unfairness of the American tax system (he thinks that wealthy people should pay a lot more taxes than they currently do). I have met numerous enlightened people, and not one of them seems interested in personal aggrandizement. Some of them are poor, and some of them have considerable personal wealth, but those who have considerable wealth not one of them seems attached to it. From what I've seen, the single biggest joy of enlightened people is pointing people to the truth of who they really are. Eckhart Tolle is often criticized by people writing on spiritual websites because he has written several best-selling books, his website is highly commercialized, and people assume that he has amassed a fortune. If it has gone into his bank account, what has he done with the money? No one really knows, but he seems like a very unassuming fellow, and it is hard to imagine that he has any interest in accumulating either a lot of money or a lot of stuff. Like Buffett, Tolle seems to enjoy what he does, and what he does is write and teach about non-duality. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that Tolle is not greedy. I think Adya, Gangaji, and several other non-duality teachers have foundations that were set up by their followers to support the teachings, and are also used for prison ministries and other charitable activities. I have never heard anyone report any activity by these teachers that could be interpreted as greedy. There are a few gurus, like Cohen, who have done questionable things, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Greed is usually a result of egocentric desire, so in this sense desiring to get into heaven exhibits more greed than what Buffett does. The crazy Muslim zealot who blows up himself and others to advance his religion, so that he'll be rewarded with 42 virgins in heaven, is about as greedy as it gets. A lot can be written about this subject, but maybe these few lines can get the ball rolling so that people might consider the idea of greed from a somewhat deeper perspective. I enjoy reading your posts ZD. When I consider greed, I consider if a homeless person come to the party? Most of the enlightened people will not let someone come to one of their enlightenment retreats unless they can pay. Why didn't Jesus and Buddha amass a fortune and help poor people? The 'greedy/generous' battlefield is walked away from as well as the 'selfish/altruistic' battlefield, so I wouldn't expect the need to save the world or act out of guilt or a self image of generosity any more than I would expect greed or selfishness. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 27, 2013 10:49:11 GMT -5
Freejoy: You wrote, "I enjoy reading your posts ZD.
When I consider greed, I consider if a homeless person come to the party?
Most of the enlightened people will not let someone come to one of their enlightenment retreats unless they can pay.
Why didn't Jesus and Buddha amass a fortune and help poor people?"
First of all, many enlightened people allow folks to attend their retreats if they are unable to pay. Most of the big-name teachers have free scholarships for serious seekers who are penniless. Even small retreat groups (such as SIG or TAT) have allowed people to attend who had no money.
Second, most homeless people are mentally ill, and very few of them are interested in non-duality teachings. Those that are not mentally ill or addicted to drugs are primarily interested in either (1) being left alone because homelessness is a choice, or (2) trying to find a way to escape homelessness through a job or government programs.
As for your question about Jesus and Buddha, you already know the answer. Your question arises from imagination ABOUT reality, so bring it closer to home. Why do YOU do what you do? Find out who's running your own show ("Freejoy"'s life), and then you'll understand why everyone else is doing what they're doing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 11:00:17 GMT -5
I was responding to this question: "Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true" oh.  He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" |
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Post by Reefs on Oct 27, 2013 11:16:30 GMT -5
When I consider greed, I consider if a homeless person come to the party? Most of the enlightened people will not let someone come to one of their enlightenment retreats unless they can pay. Why didn't Jesus and Buddha amass a fortune and help poor people? Greed is a concept based on a belief in lack, a belief in a finite amount of stuff going around. |
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Post by enigma on Oct 27, 2013 11:40:04 GMT -5
I was responding to this question: "Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true" oh. He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" I dunno how to assess whether any particular biznisman is greedy or selfish or manipulative or power hungry or whatever. I would say that giving money away may not be a good indicator either way, as self image and control can be tied up in all of it. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 27, 2013 12:12:03 GMT -5
oh. He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" I dunno how to assess whether any particular biznisman is greedy or selfish or manipulative or power hungry or whatever. I would say that giving money away may not be a good indicator either way, as self image and control can be tied up in all of it. Yes. I was going to address that issue, but forgot to. The person who gives money away to help the poor, and takes pride in that act, or thinks that s/he is doing something "good," is motivated by the same egocentric desire as the person who accumulates money for enhancing self image or gaining power. A classic confrontation regarding this issue was the question Emperor Wu put to Bodhidharma. Wu had been converted to Buddhism, and had spent a lot of wealth to translate the sutras into Chinese, build temples, support monastaries, and promote the spread of Buddhism. When he met B., he described all of his efforts in support of his new religion, and asked, "What merit have I gained?" B. replied, "None whatsoever." Ha ha. That must have been a shock. |
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Post by runstill on Oct 27, 2013 12:53:57 GMT -5
The only reason to give help , does the person need it , what's going on internally can be noticed but that's irrelevant to the need and one's action .
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Post by silence on Oct 27, 2013 15:47:30 GMT -5
Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true, and what are the issues surrounding the idea of greed? Warren Buffett is the third richest person in the world, but he's leaving 99% of his personal wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help eradicate disease and help people who live in poverty. Is Buffett greedy? Well, he's lived in the same house for more than fifty years (for which he paid $40,000). His tastes are reportedly quite modest, and his honesty, integrity, fairness, and kindness are legendary. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, probably employs a million people, directly or indirectly. He just happens to be a financial genius who loves investing in businesses. A recent book about Buffett is titled "Tap Dancing Through Life" because Buffett has described his work as a form of enjoyable play. He loves what he does, and is highly successful at it, but to him it is like a game. Is his accumulation of personal wealth a sign of greed if he isn't attached to it and if he's going to give almost all of it to charity when he dies? Buffett isn't enlightened (because he thinks he's a person), but he's happy, content, and doesn't seem to worry about anything more than the unfairness of the American tax system (he thinks that wealthy people should pay a lot more taxes than they currently do). I have met numerous enlightened people, and not one of them seems interested in personal aggrandizement. Some of them are poor, and some of them have considerable personal wealth, but those who have considerable wealth not one of them seems attached to it. From what I've seen, the single biggest joy of enlightened people is pointing people to the truth of who they really are. Eckhart Tolle is often criticized by people writing on spiritual websites because he has written several best-selling books, his website is highly commercialized, and people assume that he has amassed a fortune. If it has gone into his bank account, what has he done with the money? No one really knows, but he seems like a very unassuming fellow, and it is hard to imagine that he has any interest in accumulating either a lot of money or a lot of stuff. Like Buffett, Tolle seems to enjoy what he does, and what he does is write and teach about non-duality. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that Tolle is not greedy. I think Adya, Gangaji, and several other non-duality teachers have foundations that were set up by their followers to support the teachings, and are also used for prison ministries and other charitable activities. I have never heard anyone report any activity by these teachers that could be interpreted as greedy. There are a few gurus, like Cohen, who have done questionable things, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Greed is usually a result of egocentric desire, so in this sense desiring to get into heaven exhibits more greed than what Buffett does. The crazy Muslim zealot who blows up himself and others to advance his religion, so that he'll be rewarded with 42 virgins in heaven, is about as greedy as it gets. A lot can be written about this subject, but maybe these few lines can get the ball rolling so that people might consider the idea of greed from a somewhat deeper perspective. I enjoy reading your posts ZD. When I consider greed, I consider if a homeless person come to the party? Most of the enlightened people will not let someone come to one of their enlightenment retreats unless they can pay. Why didn't Jesus and Buddha amass a fortune and help poor people? If you went to a hotel and said you wanted a room they would want you to pay too. I don't know how renting out space for a "retreat" is any different really. |
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