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Post by lolly on Sept 26, 2013 19:36:44 GMT -5
It's nothing to do with Ramana, he's just an old dead guy. I respect the image and the things he was purported to say, but that's just a matter of taste. In my opinion, dropping names of sages to imply ones personal spiritual beliefs are true is just a trick used to impose those beliefs on others, where the actual situation is each person has a different perspective on 'what is'.
True enough to say that some people are quite disconnected or have never witnessed IT, but that make's no difference because people are as they are.
No one can climb a mountain without trying, and I've found that selfnessness includes a 100% sincere intent to do the very best that is possible... and the 'no effort proponants' seem to spend a lot of time in ST right? hehehe.
The thing with a people is they are as they are, themselves, and if no-one was there, who gives a damn? In real terms we actually do care so I guess that 'I' and 'you' is actually acknowledged, not as Truth or anything, it just happens to be the way it is, and we all have a sense of truth that underlies our changing beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 20:33:29 GMT -5
"Question : What is samadhi? Ramana Maharshi : The state in which the unbroken experience of existence-consciousness is attained by the still mind, alone is samadhi. That still mind which is adorned with the attainment of the limitless supreme Self, alone is the reality of God. When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is called nidra [sleep], that is, the immersion of the mind in ignorance. Immersion in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi. Samadhi is continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or sleep is also inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In sahaja samadhi the communion is con-tinuous. Question : What are kevala nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? Ramana Maharshi :The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. In this state one is not free from vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti. Only after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation. Question : When can one practise sahaja samadhi? Ramana Maharshi : Even from the beginning. Even though one practises kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not attain liberation.Question : May I have a clear idea of the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa? Ramana Maharshi : Holding on to the supreme state is samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is savikalpa. When these disturbances are absent, it is nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is sahaja. Question : Is nirvikalpa samadhi absolutely necessary before the attainment of sahaja? Ramana Maharshi : Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either savikalpa or nirvikatpa, is sahaja [the natural state]. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both of these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected and which remains as it always is, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it then matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that pure consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference to the knowledge of the supreme." I'm curious how you would interpret the underlined. What exactly does that involve? Haha....That part caught me too....I figured you'd catch onto that bit my friend. Vasana in the Advaita Vedanta context in which Ramana speaks is is the habitual desires and movements of the mind...its kinda like the momentum and direction that mind builds. I read a good analogy on Vasanas that went something like this: If you put a bit of red jelly on a table, and then very slowly pour warm water over it, you will get these little red streams of water flowing away from the jelly...if you increase the flow slightly the already formed stream of fluid will increase in its height and width, but it will still follow the same course....That is like Vasanas Vasanas are the momentum and inertia that the mind has built up, usually expressing themselves as the desires that arise from habitual mind patterns. Someone here made a good analogy in saying that we appear to make choices, but in reality we always choose based on an innate and conditioned set of preferences....those inherent preferences that move us in habitual patterns in a kind of continously flowing momentum can be said to be Vasanas. Ramana's method of clearing the Vasanas was to utterly surrender to death over and over and over and years of nirvikalpa and savikalpa samadhi....basically he sat on a mountain Surrendering everything and entering Samadhi until there was no Vasanas left. My own method, which is obviously a work in progress, is to let go of all truths and knowledge as they arise, and surrender everything to God's will, in concert with remaining in Samadhi as much and as often as I can. In a nod to "your" method, noticing that things are not true can be, but is not always a good method of undoing the momentum of the Vasanas... :-) Realization is Very helpful in releasing the Vasanas. But as I stated awhile back...realization is a means not an end, in that it clears away vasanas, and opens the way for constant and effortless state of Sahaja Samadhi, which, as Ramana describes it, is the only real liberation. I find liberation to be a good word fir it, but God Union resonates more with this little wave over here :-) My experience is that the more one meditates and opens into Samadhi, the more realization occurs, which clears away vasanas, which in in turn rids the self of its self perpetuation and clears the way for permanent and constant Samadhi, versus the temporary version that comes and goes because the vasanas keep re-asserting themselves. Whats your experience on that underlined bit?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 21:03:02 GMT -5
Here are some Ramana quotes on Vasanas: "“There are not two minds – one good and the other evil; the mind is only one. It is the residual impressions that are of two kinds – auspicious and inauspicious. When the mind is under the influence of auspicious impressions it is called good; and when it is under the influence of inauspicious impressions it is regarded as evil.” (1)" "“All the age-long vasanas (impressions) carry the mind outwards and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward.” (2)" "“Vasanas which do not obstruct Self-Realization remain [after Self-Realization]. In Yoga Vasistha two classes of vasanas are distinguished: those of enjoyment and those of bondage. “The former remain even after Mukti is attained, but the latter are destroyed by it. Attachment is the cause of binding vasanas, but enjoyment without attachment does not bind and continues even in Sahaja. (3)"
"Ramana Maharshi : If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like trying to quench a fire by pouring inflammable spirits on it. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into a forceful surging up of desires with undesirable consequences.
The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out `Who gets the desire? What is its source?' When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink, sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy.
They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind."
Padamalai verses of Muruganar say:
Verse 2328: The wonderful meaning of the one supreme word, (Summa Iru) is to know and rest in the Atma Swarupa through the enquiry of 'Who am I?'
Verse 2114: Except by remaining still (Summa Iruttal), by what great 'tapas', can the Atma-Swarupa be attained in the Heart?
Verse 2261: It will be impossible to merge with the feet of Lord Sonachala, (Annamalai), unless one remains still, with the mind competely annihilated.
Verse 1217: Since becoming established in the state of the Self is both the means and the goal to be attained, remain still.
Talks No. 322 runs like this:
Question: What should one do in order to remain free from thoughts as advised by you? Is it only the enquiry 'Who am I?'
Bhagavan: Only to remain still. Do it and see.
Question: It is impossible.
Bhagavan: Exactly. For the same reason, the enquiry, "Who am I?" is advised.
In Day by Day, entry dated 11th Jan 1946, Bhagavan says:
All the age long Vasanas carry the mind outward and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward. For that, effort is necessary for most people. Of course, everybody, every book says: Summa Iru. i.e 'Be quiet or still.' But it is not easy. That is why all this effort is necessary. Even if we find one has at once achieved the 'mauna' or supreme state indicated by 'Summa Iru', you may take it that effort has already been finished in a previous life.
(Source: Padamalai, Muruganar, Tr. and commented by David Godman and others.)
Arunachala Siva.
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Post by enigma on Sept 26, 2013 21:22:25 GMT -5
I'm curious how you would interpret the underlined. What exactly does that involve? Haha....That part caught me too....I figured you'd catch onto that bit my friend. Vasana in the Advaita Vedanta context in which Ramana speaks is is the habitual desires and movements of the mind...its kinda like the momentum and direction that mind builds. I read a good analogy on Vasanas that went something like this: If you put a bit of red jelly on a table, and then very slowly pour warm water over it, you will get these little red streams of water flowing away from the jelly...if you increase the flow slightly the already formed stream of fluid will increase in its height and width, but it will still follow the same course....That is like Vasanas Vasanas are the momentum and inertia that the mind has built up, usually expressing themselves as the desires that arise from habitual mind patterns. Someone here made a good analogy in saying that we appear to make choices, but in reality we always choose based on an innate and conditioned set of preferences....those inherent preferences that move us in habitual patterns in a kind of continously flowing momentum can be said to be Vasanas. Ramana's method of clearing the Vasanas was to utterly surrender to death over and over and over and years of nirvikalpa and savikalpa samadhi....basically he sat on a mountain Surrendering everything and entering Samadhi until there was no Vasanas left. My own method, which is obviously a work in progress, is to let go of all truths and knowledge as they arise, and surrender everything to God's will, in concert with remaining in Samadhi as much and as often as I can. In a nod to "your" method, noticing that things are not true can be, but is not always a good method of undoing the momentum of the Vasanas... :-) Realization is Very helpful in releasing the Vasanas. But as I stated awhile back...realization is a means not an end, in that it clears away vasanas, and opens the way for constant and effortless state of Sahaja Samadhi, which, as Ramana describes it, is the only real liberation. I find liberation to be a good word fir it, but God Union resonates more with this little wave over here :-) My experience is that the more one meditates and opens into Samadhi, the more realization occurs, which clears away vasanas, which in in turn rids the self of its self perpetuation and clears the way for permanent and constant Samadhi, versus the temporary version that comes and goes because the vasanas keep re-asserting themselves. Whats your experience on that underlined bit? I accept that there's more than one way to skin the Vasana cat, and so I can accept that there is a mind path, which involves a purification of mind through insight, clarity and understanding, and a devotional path, of which Samadhi may well be a very useful part. I don't have, and never have had, an issue with those very different approaches, and so I believe I understand why you see Samadhi leading to realization, while I see that most likely the reverse occurs. (Realizations of some stripe generally leading to spiritual experiences of some kind) Those differences may be more about how realization is approached than how it actually occurs. Hencely, I'll stop beating you over the head for chasing woo woo experiences if you'll stop beating me over the head for being 'absorbed in mind'.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 26, 2013 22:01:44 GMT -5
Says who? Your descriptions of what you call 'samadhi' are way too convoluted and contradictory to be taken seriously. The only one who gave consistent descriptions so far is ZD, something I can absolutely related to, so I'd rather dub him the forum samadhi expert and not you. Sorry, Mr Ox. The actual goofy thing here is your ponderization about the natural state. Natural means effortless, it's a given. That which is real. What I'm telling you, that the real cannot be touched by the false, is not different from what Ramana said: "A practiser gains peace of mind and is happy. That peace is the result of his efforts. But the real state must be effortless. The effortless samadhi is the true one and the perfect state. It is permanent. The efforts are spasmodic and so also their results." - Ramana
But it would take a realization to see that. In case you are talking to me, I've never said I had no first hand knowledge of what I'm talking about here. So far we are still at the comparing definitions of 'samadhi' stage to get clear that we are talking about the same thingy. To that bolded bit above: No, it would not....an understanding based on experience will due...what he is referring to is what I have been talking about doing, and that is practicing the methods of opening into Samadhi, and remaining in Samadhi so frequently that it eventually becomes the constant and effortless state...There is a progression from Nirvikalpa Samadhi to Sahaja Samadhi....Sahaja Samadhi is when the temporary Samadhi that results from practice becomes constant and effortless Samadhi....Ramana is telling you to try and do what you have been poking at me for trying to do lol.....you should really become more familiar with this stuff before you comment on it...Almost got the sense with your comment that you were about to make the leap of calling the inane and nonsensical "effortlessness" of the neo-advaitas Samadhi hehehe...as if you were about to interpret what Ramana said as meaning that whenever you are effortless you are in Samadhi lol.....go agead....take two minutes and Google "Sahaja Samadhi and Nirvikalpa Samadhi"...
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Post by Reefs on Sept 26, 2013 22:18:01 GMT -5
I accept that there's more than one way to skin the Vasana cat, and so I can accept that there is a mind path, which involves a purification of mind through insight, clarity and understanding, and a devotional path, of which Samadhi may well be a very useful part. I don't have, and never have had, an issue with those very different approaches, and so I believe I understand why you see Samadhi leading to realization, while I see that most likely the reverse occurs. (Realizations of some stripe generally leading to spiritual experiences of some kind) Those differences may be more about how realization is approached than how it actually occurs. Hencely, I'll stop beating you over the head for chasing woo woo experiences if you'll stop beating me over the head for being 'absorbed in mind'. Well, obviously the alleged samadhi Steve allegedly experiences throughout the day is without real consequences, at least here on the forum. He's the same old hyper-minder he has been 2 years ago. Maybe even worse. The difference is that he claimed to be always in the deepest samadhi and never coming out back then and now he's more moderate with his claims. Also, in the past he only had one account, now he creates and deletes several accounts per day. That looks more like different personas fighting in his head than being in god union most of the day. So, obviously, samadhi without a realization is just another achievement in the seekers spiritual resume.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 26, 2013 22:20:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Yes, but at the expense of others you deem less worthy than yourself.. Be well.. Now you're just trolling. Will you reply to everything I say to you with some sort of fantasy-insult? What? frightened of your own reflection?.. let's see, you replied to my reply to your reply, who's the guiltier guilty? Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 26, 2013 22:25:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. He keeps telling us that "oneness is truth", too.. and it's demonstrably not so, as you like to say, it's an "abstract idea", right? Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 23:48:22 GMT -5
Haha....That part caught me too....I figured you'd catch onto that bit my friend. Vasana in the Advaita Vedanta context in which Ramana speaks is is the habitual desires and movements of the mind...its kinda like the momentum and direction that mind builds. I read a good analogy on Vasanas that went something like this: If you put a bit of red jelly on a table, and then very slowly pour warm water over it, you will get these little red streams of water flowing away from the jelly...if you increase the flow slightly the already formed stream of fluid will increase in its height and width, but it will still follow the same course....That is like Vasanas Vasanas are the momentum and inertia that the mind has built up, usually expressing themselves as the desires that arise from habitual mind patterns. Someone here made a good analogy in saying that we appear to make choices, but in reality we always choose based on an innate and conditioned set of preferences....those inherent preferences that move us in habitual patterns in a kind of continously flowing momentum can be said to be Vasanas. Ramana's method of clearing the Vasanas was to utterly surrender to death over and over and over and years of nirvikalpa and savikalpa samadhi....basically he sat on a mountain Surrendering everything and entering Samadhi until there was no Vasanas left. My own method, which is obviously a work in progress, is to let go of all truths and knowledge as they arise, and surrender everything to God's will, in concert with remaining in Samadhi as much and as often as I can. In a nod to "your" method, noticing that things are not true can be, but is not always a good method of undoing the momentum of the Vasanas... :-) Realization is Very helpful in releasing the Vasanas. But as I stated awhile back...realization is a means not an end, in that it clears away vasanas, and opens the way for constant and effortless state of Sahaja Samadhi, which, as Ramana describes it, is the only real liberation. I find liberation to be a good word fir it, but God Union resonates more with this little wave over here :-) My experience is that the more one meditates and opens into Samadhi, the more realization occurs, which clears away vasanas, which in in turn rids the self of its self perpetuation and clears the way for permanent and constant Samadhi, versus the temporary version that comes and goes because the vasanas keep re-asserting themselves. Whats your experience on that underlined bit? I accept that there's more than one way to skin the Vasana cat, and so I can accept that there is a mind path, which involves a purification of mind through insight, clarity and understanding, and a devotional path, of which Samadhi may well be a very useful part. I don't have, and never have had, an issue with those very different approaches, and so I believe I understand why you see Samadhi leading to realization, while I see that most likely the reverse occurs. (Realizations of some stripe generally leading to spiritual experiences of some kind) Those differences may be more about how realization is approached than how it actually occurs. Hencely, I'll stop beating you over the head for chasing woo woo experiences if you'll stop beating me over the head for being 'absorbed in mind'. :-)
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Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2013 1:40:14 GMT -5
I accept that there's more than one way to skin the Vasana cat, and so I can accept that there is a mind path, which involves a purification of mind through insight, clarity and understanding, and a devotional path, of which Samadhi may well be a very useful part. I don't have, and never have had, an issue with those very different approaches, and so I believe I understand why you see Samadhi leading to realization, while I see that most likely the reverse occurs. (Realizations of some stripe generally leading to spiritual experiences of some kind) Those differences may be more about how realization is approached than how it actually occurs. Hencely, I'll stop beating you over the head for chasing woo woo experiences if you'll stop beating me over the head for being 'absorbed in mind'. Well, obviously the alleged samadhi Steve allegedly experiences throughout the day is without real consequences, at least here on the forum. He's the same old hyper-minder he has been 2 years ago. Maybe even worse. The difference is that he claimed to be always in the deepest samadhi and never coming out back then and now he's more moderate with his claims. Also, in the past he only had one account, now he creates and deletes several accounts per day. That looks more like different personas fighting in his head than being in god union most of the day. So, obviously, samadhi without a realization is just another achievement in the seekers spiritual resume. Well, picking a path to deal with vasanananas is one thing, and actually doing the work is another. We'll just have to hide and watch.
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Post by laughter on Sept 27, 2013 6:20:28 GMT -5
Greetings.. Now you're just trolling. Will you reply to everything I say to you with some sort of fantasy-insult? What? frightened of your own reflection?.. let's see, you replied to my reply to your reply, who's the guiltier guilty? Be well.. My reflection eh? Greetings.. The futility of abstraction and the thinking process in discovering what it is that we are is something the thinking process can demonstrate and it's one of those things that if you don't laugh about you'd cry. I prefer to laugh. Yes, but at the expense of others you deem less worthy than yourself.. Be well.. Link or giraffe. Give me one example where I tell someone else that they're not worthy. One. You can't. Let the fantasy machine spin begin. In overdrive.
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Post by laughter on Sept 27, 2013 6:22:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. He keeps telling us that "oneness is truth", too.. and it's demonstrably not so, as you like to say, it's an "abstract idea", right? Be well.. (** muttley snicker **) third thread unsolicited reply from you to me, btw. 3-0. Yeah, winning streak. Woo-woo! Congratulations, also, for swinging at a post with nothin' but an emoticon (** snicker snicker snicker **) And to answer your question, yes, of course "oneness is truth" is an abstract idea. The difference between you and I is that I'll admit that I'm trafficking in ideas here, while you claim to be somehow transcribing wordless words of idealess ideas with some kind of still-mind-clarified-fairy-ink. Have at it twinkle toes.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 27, 2013 9:24:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. He keeps telling us that "oneness is truth", too.. and it's demonstrably not so, as you like to say, it's an "abstract idea", right? Be well.. (** muttley snicker **) third thread unsolicited reply from you to me, btw. 3-0. Yeah, winning streak. Woo-woo! Congratulations, also, for swinging at a post with nothin' but an emoticon (** snicker snicker snicker **) And to answer your question, yes, of course "oneness is truth" is an abstract idea. The difference between you and I is that I'll admit that I'm trafficking in ideas here, while you claim to be somehow transcribing wordless words of idealess ideas with some kind of still-mind-clarified-fairy-ink. Have at it twinkle toes. Spoiling for a fight, slugger, keeping score? you're a sad one, Muttley, devoid of stillness or clarity.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 11:31:34 GMT -5
Actually that consciousness 'talks to itself' is an assumptive thought and not a perception…A perception in this case is the perception of a 'thought', like perceiving a sensation.... the content of which is an unreliable concept about consciousness talking to itself. The content of the thought is what is illusory not the perception of a thought. Actually, it's a realization. So an abstract premise is your argument that consciousness 'talks to itself'?! I call that a logical fallacy as neither the premise nor the conclusion are anything more than unverifiable assumptions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 11:34:51 GMT -5
Actually that choice is based on conditioning alone is a debatable premise at best and probably not entirely true at all. So the conclusion that I don’t really have nothing to do with it is equally dubious… It's not a debatable premise or a conclusion, it's a realization. We are talking about choice and your argument against choice is an unverifiable abstract assumption... You do see the problem in asserting your argument against choice don't you?!
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