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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2013 21:09:51 GMT -5
It's tmt dude, just let the word have multiple definitions. One can argue that if you lose your balance on a narrow ledge on a mountain that if you take the time to feel fear then you're dead. The ability to artificially induce fear is at the core of human suffering. You think old age, sickness, death, the loss of the self and the unknown is 'artificially' induced?!... |
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Post by enigma on Sept 8, 2013 22:46:54 GMT -5
If you suddenly come across a hungry tiger in your path, you will probably feel fear, anxiety, panic. Does that have anything to do with the ego? Or is it simply the natural response to physical threats? When a horse bolts because it is scared of the flames, or a mouse flees from the owl, where is the ego in that? There is a surge of biochemicals that occur when the body is faced with physical threats; we call this fear. In those moments, the horse, the mouse, the human are probably not thinking about the future at all - they aren't thinking either. They are simply acting automatically. Fear is clearly a survival mechanism that can operate without the use of complex thinking. Coming across a hungry tiger, becoming fearful and leaving immediately is not a problem. The ability for thought to attach to this survival mechanism and begin to indefinitely project future scenarios and probabilities of potential threats to an imagined center IS a problem. To hear news about potential cancer, and artificially induce fear within the body serves no useful purpose to the organism. The type of fear that is present in animals (including humans) to thwart danger is an automatic response that typically silences thought while ego is a movement of thought that triggers fear as a means to insure the survival of ego with the consideration of the body only as a type of parasite/host relationship. What's more, it's been my experience that for some people, suffering from anxiety and other disorders, fear & anxiety can arise without any cause whatsoever. The mind may then step in and try to explain the source, creating a story, and that story may be framed in a way that it is happening to "me" i.e., ego. There is a cause but it is typically because the line of thinking has become so repetitious and subtle that it no longer requires overt linguistic thinking to trigger the anxiety. Even more interesting to me is that I can't help but notice that some of the most pleasurable experiences in life - falling in love, deep emotional intimacy, great sex, roller coaster rides, white water rafting -- come wrapped up with a big dose of fear and anxiety. Think about it. Would such experiences be half as good without fear and anxiety?
In the absence of gaining any sort of clear perspective on mind, finding oneself in situations that produce fear and thereby shut down most processes of thought is for most exhilarating. People will report that they have never felt more alive in the middle of combat situations or sky diving or whatever it is. The reason of course is not because of the fear but because as a last resort the body overrode the compulsion to live in ones imagination.I agree in the context of extreme sports and other situations in which one becomes very present as a matter of survival, and usually that alive feeling only dominates if things actually worked out pretty well in the end. There is a continuum that runs from excitement to wariness to anxiety to terror, and so enjoyable excitement really lies on the same continuum with the suffering of terror, and we arbitrarily place labels along it. When we go back and read our labels, it seems like enjoyment and terror have nothing at all to do with each other, but really they're just separated by intensity and how much we feel in control. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 8, 2013 23:28:28 GMT -5
The ability to artificially induce fear is at the core of human suffering. You think old age, sickness, death, the loss of the self and the unknown is 'artificially' induced?!... The fear of it is. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Sept 9, 2013 8:57:08 GMT -5
If you suddenly come across a hungry tiger in your path, you will probably feel fear, anxiety, panic. Does that have anything to do with the ego? Or is it simply the natural response to physical threats? When a horse bolts because it is scared of the flames, or a mouse flees from the owl, where is the ego in that? There is a surge of biochemicals that occur when the body is faced with physical threats; we call this fear. In those moments, the horse, the mouse, the human are probably not thinking about the future at all - they aren't thinking either. They are simply acting automatically. Fear is clearly a survival mechanism that can operate without the use of complex thinking. Coming across a hungry tiger, becoming fearful and leaving immediately is not a problem. The ability for thought to attach to this survival mechanism and begin to indefinitely project future scenarios and probabilities of potential threats to an imagined center IS a problem. To hear news about potential cancer, and artificially induce fear within the body serves no useful purpose to the organism. The type of fear that is present in animals (including humans) to thwart danger is an automatic response that typically silences thought while ego is a movement of thought that triggers fear as a means to insure the survival of ego with the consideration of the body only as a type of parasite/host relationship. What's more, it's been my experience that for some people, suffering from anxiety and other disorders, fear & anxiety can arise without any cause whatsoever. The mind may then step in and try to explain the source, creating a story, and that story may be framed in a way that it is happening to "me" i.e., ego. Even more interesting to me is that I can't help but notice that some of the most pleasurable experiences in life - falling in love, deep emotional intimacy, great sex, roller coaster rides, white water rafting -- come wrapped up with a big dose of fear and anxiety. Think about it. Would such experiences be half as good without fear and anxiety? In the absence of gaining any sort of clear perspective on mind, finding oneself in situations that produce fear and thereby shut down most processes of thought is for most exhilarating. People will report that they have never felt more alive in the middle of combat situations or sky diving or whatever it is. The reason of course is not because of the fear but because as a last resort the body overrode the compulsion to live in ones imagination. I get what you are saying here (bolded part) but that has not been my experience, as someone born with a jumpy anxious temperament who's battled anxiety disorders. The way I'm wired, sometimes fear/anxiety arises for no reason whatsoever. There's no cause -- no external threat, no imagined threat either. Over the years I've come to see that it may simply be a glitch in the brain chemistry. Feelings of fear/anxiety arise *first*... with no cause... but then what happens next is as you say: there is a subtle and repetitious pattern of searching for a cause to pin the feelings on. Once I realized that often there IS no cause, it became a lot easier to get it under control. The feelings still arise, I just don't attach thought to them so the feelings dissipate a lot faster. In other words .... A. I see a snake and my heart races and I panic worrying about how the snake might bite me; B. My heart races and I panic, then I see a snake, and I worry about how the snake might bite me. "B" happens more often than not, enough that sometimes I get to wondering if I'm not just a brain floating in a vat, with aliens poking here and there to elicit feelings, and then conjuring up images of snakes or whatever to explain the feelings, so as not to let on that I'm actually just a brain in a vat. I am mostly kidding here... I am just saying that noticing this pattern -- that the feelings arise first -- has been interesting. In the snake example, it could also be that my brain registered the snake an instant before processing and presenting the visual of the snake to me. But that doesn't explain other times when there is no snake the next instant, just unexplained feelings arising and washing over the body. I would say this is just me and I am an anomaly but I know I'm not. I know lots of people who share a similar experience. To say that the thinking simply became more subtle and covert is not true. The thinking was tacked on *after* the fact. And that is a problem, and addressing that problem does help a lot, but does not eliminate it entirely. |
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Post by freejoy on Sept 9, 2013 9:01:29 GMT -5
Fear is clearly a survival mechanism that can operate without the use of complex thinking. Coming across a hungry tiger, becoming fearful and leaving immediately is not a problem. The ability for thought to attach to this survival mechanism and begin to indefinitely project future scenarios and probabilities of potential threats to an imagined center IS a problem. To hear news about potential cancer, and artificially induce fear within the body serves no useful purpose to the organism. The type of fear that is present in animals (including humans) to thwart danger is an automatic response that typically silences thought while ego is a movement of thought that triggers fear as a means to insure the survival of ego with the consideration of the body only as a type of parasite/host relationship. There is a cause but it is typically because the line of thinking has become so repetitious and subtle that it no longer requires overt linguistic thinking to trigger the anxiety. In the absence of gaining any sort of clear perspective on mind, finding oneself in situations that produce fear and thereby shut down most processes of thought is for most exhilarating. People will report that they have never felt more alive in the middle of combat situations or sky diving or whatever it is. The reason of course is not because of the fear but because as a last resort the body overrode the compulsion to live in ones imagination. I get what you are saying here (bolded part) but that has not been my experience, as someone born with a jumpy anxious temperament who's battled anxiety disorders. The way I'm wired, sometimes fear/anxiety arises for no reason whatsoever. There's no cause -- no external threat, no imagined threat either. Over the years I've come to see that it may simply be a glitch in the brain chemistry. Feelings of fear/anxiety arise *first*... with no cause... but then what happens next is as you say: there is a subtle and repetitious pattern of searching for a cause to pin the feelings on. Once I realized that often there IS no cause, it became a lot easier to get it under control. The feelings still arise, I just don't attach thought to them so the feelings dissipate a lot faster. In other words .... A. I see a snake and my heart races and I panic worrying about how the snake might bite me; B. My heart races and I panic, then I see a snake, and I worry about how the snake might bite me. "B" happens more often than not, enough that sometimes I get to wondering if I'm not just a brain floating in a vat, with aliens poking here and there to elicit feelings, and then conjuring up images of snakes or whatever to explain the feelings, so as not to let on that I'm actually just a brain in a vat. I am mostly kidding here... I am just saying that noticing this pattern -- that the feelings arise first -- has been interesting. In the snake example, it could also be that my brain registered the snake an instant before processing and presenting the visual of the snake to me. But that doesn't explain other times when there is no snake the next instant, just unexplained feelings arising and washing over the body. I would say this is just me and I am an anomaly but I know I'm not. I know lots of people who share a similar experience. To say that the thinking simply became more subtle and covert is not true. The thinking was tacked on *after* the fact. And that is a problem, and addressing that problem does help a lot, but does not eliminate it entirely. When a tiger comes running after you he'll suddenly feel how much love and peace you have that he'll lay down beside you and start purring.  |
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Post by serpentqueen on Sept 9, 2013 9:02:21 GMT -5
Fear is clearly a survival mechanism that can operate without the use of complex thinking. Coming across a hungry tiger, becoming fearful and leaving immediately is not a problem. The ability for thought to attach to this survival mechanism and begin to indefinitely project future scenarios and probabilities of potential threats to an imagined center IS a problem. To hear news about potential cancer, and artificially induce fear within the body serves no useful purpose to the organism. The type of fear that is present in animals (including humans) to thwart danger is an automatic response that typically silences thought while ego is a movement of thought that triggers fear as a means to insure the survival of ego with the consideration of the body only as a type of parasite/host relationship. There is a cause but it is typically because the line of thinking has become so repetitious and subtle that it no longer requires overt linguistic thinking to trigger the anxiety.
In the absence of gaining any sort of clear perspective on mind, finding oneself in situations that produce fear and thereby shut down most processes of thought is for most exhilarating. People will report that they have never felt more alive in the middle of combat situations or sky diving or whatever it is. The reason of course is not because of the fear but because as a last resort the body overrode the compulsion to live in ones imagination.I agree in the context of extreme sports and other situations in which one becomes very present as a matter of survival, and usually that alive feeling only dominates if things actually worked out pretty well in the end. There is a continuum that runs from excitement to wariness to anxiety to terror, and so enjoyable excitement really lies on the same continuum with the suffering of terror, and we arbitrarily place labels along it. When we go back and read our labels, it seems like enjoyment and terror have nothing at all to do with each other, but really they're just separated by intensity and how much we feel in control.... and the outcome! |
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Post by enigma on Sept 9, 2013 11:01:06 GMT -5
Fear is clearly a survival mechanism that can operate without the use of complex thinking. Coming across a hungry tiger, becoming fearful and leaving immediately is not a problem. The ability for thought to attach to this survival mechanism and begin to indefinitely project future scenarios and probabilities of potential threats to an imagined center IS a problem. To hear news about potential cancer, and artificially induce fear within the body serves no useful purpose to the organism. The type of fear that is present in animals (including humans) to thwart danger is an automatic response that typically silences thought while ego is a movement of thought that triggers fear as a means to insure the survival of ego with the consideration of the body only as a type of parasite/host relationship. There is a cause but it is typically because the line of thinking has become so repetitious and subtle that it no longer requires overt linguistic thinking to trigger the anxiety. In the absence of gaining any sort of clear perspective on mind, finding oneself in situations that produce fear and thereby shut down most processes of thought is for most exhilarating. People will report that they have never felt more alive in the middle of combat situations or sky diving or whatever it is. The reason of course is not because of the fear but because as a last resort the body overrode the compulsion to live in ones imagination. I get what you are saying here (bolded part) but that has not been my experience, as someone born with a jumpy anxious temperament who's battled anxiety disorders. The way I'm wired, sometimes fear/anxiety arises for no reason whatsoever. There's no cause -- no external threat, no imagined threat either. Over the years I've come to see that it may simply be a glitch in the brain chemistry. Feelings of fear/anxiety arise *first*... with no cause... but then what happens next is as you say: there is a subtle and repetitious pattern of searching for a cause to pin the feelings on. Once I realized that often there IS no cause, it became a lot easier to get it under control. The feelings still arise, I just don't attach thought to them so the feelings dissipate a lot faster. In other words .... A. I see a snake and my heart races and I panic worrying about how the snake might bite me; B. My heart races and I panic, then I see a snake, and I worry about how the snake might bite me. "B" happens more often than not, enough that sometimes I get to wondering if I'm not just a brain floating in a vat, with aliens poking here and there to elicit feelings, and then conjuring up images of snakes or whatever to explain the feelings, so as not to let on that I'm actually just a brain in a vat. I am mostly kidding here... I am just saying that noticing this pattern -- that the feelings arise first -- has been interesting. In the snake example, it could also be that my brain registered the snake an instant before processing and presenting the visual of the snake to me. But that doesn't explain other times when there is no snake the next instant, just unexplained feelings arising and washing over the body. I would say this is just me and I am an anomaly but I know I'm not. I know lots of people who share a similar experience. To say that the thinking simply became more subtle and covert is not true. The thinking was tacked on *after* the fact. And that is a problem, and addressing that problem does help a lot, but does not eliminate it entirely. Ungrounded anxiety (fear that seems to have no obvious cause) is almost universal in humans to some degree. In general, it's the result of habitually repressing negative feelings over a long period of time in many situations, and so it's true there is no specific cause of any particular incident of anxiety. Something may trigger it, and most folks point to that trigger as the cause, and in other cases mind will search for a cause after the fact, as you describe, and basically make something up. (something all minds are proficient at) Both of those responses are essentially unconscious reactions, as one is not actually aware of what's happening, and so if one is relatively conscious, they may not be accepted as explanations for the anxiety. Unless one is in denial, or has transcended it, it's 'normal' to experience an unsettled feeling all the time, in the background, and this is why folks look for distractions and ways to stay hyper busy. One way to bring this anxiety to the surface is to be alone with oneself with nothing to do. For obvious reasons, this is a major societal taboo. Never be alone and always be doing something or society will tell you something is wrong with you. The proof of that is that you will start to feel anxious.  |
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Post by enigma on Sept 9, 2013 11:10:15 GMT -5
I agree in the context of extreme sports and other situations in which one becomes very present as a matter of survival, and usually that alive feeling only dominates if things actually worked out pretty well in the end. There is a continuum that runs from excitement to wariness to anxiety to terror, and so enjoyable excitement really lies on the same continuum with the suffering of terror, and we arbitrarily place labels along it. When we go back and read our labels, it seems like enjoyment and terror have nothing at all to do with each other, but really they're just separated by intensity and how much we feel in control.... and the outcome! If you feel in control of the outcome, outcome is not an issue. For example, you go to see a horror flick, and while it may excite and scare you in an enjoyable way, it never becomes terror because it's not believed to be real and you can put an end to it any time, by closing your eyes or walking out of the theater. Outside the theater you may encounter a group of rough looking men and be genuinely frightened because you're not in control anymore. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Sept 9, 2013 11:25:47 GMT -5
I get what you are saying here (bolded part) but that has not been my experience, as someone born with a jumpy anxious temperament who's battled anxiety disorders. The way I'm wired, sometimes fear/anxiety arises for no reason whatsoever. There's no cause -- no external threat, no imagined threat either. Over the years I've come to see that it may simply be a glitch in the brain chemistry. Feelings of fear/anxiety arise *first*... with no cause... but then what happens next is as you say: there is a subtle and repetitious pattern of searching for a cause to pin the feelings on. Once I realized that often there IS no cause, it became a lot easier to get it under control. The feelings still arise, I just don't attach thought to them so the feelings dissipate a lot faster. In other words .... A. I see a snake and my heart races and I panic worrying about how the snake might bite me; B. My heart races and I panic, then I see a snake, and I worry about how the snake might bite me. "B" happens more often than not, enough that sometimes I get to wondering if I'm not just a brain floating in a vat, with aliens poking here and there to elicit feelings, and then conjuring up images of snakes or whatever to explain the feelings, so as not to let on that I'm actually just a brain in a vat. I am mostly kidding here... I am just saying that noticing this pattern -- that the feelings arise first -- has been interesting. In the snake example, it could also be that my brain registered the snake an instant before processing and presenting the visual of the snake to me. But that doesn't explain other times when there is no snake the next instant, just unexplained feelings arising and washing over the body. I would say this is just me and I am an anomaly but I know I'm not. I know lots of people who share a similar experience. To say that the thinking simply became more subtle and covert is not true. The thinking was tacked on *after* the fact. And that is a problem, and addressing that problem does help a lot, but does not eliminate it entirely. Ungrounded anxiety (fear that seems to have no obvious cause) is almost universal in humans to some degree. In general, it's the result of habitually repressing negative feelings over a long period of time in many situations, and so it's true there is no specific cause of any particular incident of anxiety. Something may trigger it, and most folks point to that trigger as the cause, and in other cases mind will search for a cause after the fact, as you describe, and basically make something up. (something all minds are proficient at) Both of those responses are essentially unconscious reactions, as one is not actually aware of what's happening, and so if one is relatively conscious, they may not be accepted as explanations for the anxiety. Unless one is in denial, or has transcended it, it's 'normal' to experience an unsettled feeling all the time, in the background, and this is why folks look for distractions and ways to stay hyper busy. One way to bring this anxiety to the surface is to be alone with oneself with nothing to do. For obvious reasons, this is a major societal taboo. Never be alone and always be doing something or society will tell you something is wrong with you. The proof of that is that you will start to feel anxious. Heh. I am so NOT busy right now, it's ridiculous. Spending a lot of time alone with nothing to do, as my usual occupying activities have been, one by one, stripped from me. You may be on to something here. Deep down I know it's all going to be fine and I'll be okay, yet lately I am having that unexplained, ungrounded anxiety coming over me. Every now and then I fret - "I *should* do this, I *should* do that... " but then that subsides into nothing. I just keep waiting for the "next big thing" to capture my attention and give me something to care about again. But it's been months and months now. Today I'm not all that anxious, but I woke up feeling thoroughly depressed and mulling darkly over how it's all ... pointless. But I know from ample experience "this too shall pass." Blech. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 11:28:37 GMT -5
You think old age, sickness, death, the loss of the self and the unknown is 'artificially' induced?!... The fear of it is. Fear is perceived, but not the one that has the ability to artificially induce it... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 22:33:55 GMT -5
Roberts poem.
BIBRA LAKE. - 1
We call to each like birds in flight
from the gathering gloom
of the fading day now nearly all spent.
A pastel shade of pink
Is all the lake can save out of the fading light
But it knows that this lovely blush
Will not last nor can it hide the sadness
Of its growing sense of loss
That it offers me its silent watcher
standing alone by the rushes,
Home to benighted swans
That try to shield the goslings
From knowing their destiny.
There'll be time enough for that
As the lake dries up
In the scorching heat of summer
That comes uncalled and unwelcome.
ON READING " BIBRA LAKE"
I wonder what made me write "Bibra Lake"
in the waiting room of the clinic;
was it because it was just that -
a waiting room?
There are stranger places
that release passing echoes
that get trapped in the
spreading web of consciousness
from where all life is summoned.
Summoned by who ?
It makes me wonder who I am.
And does the lake call to me
just as I call to it?
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Post by enigma on Sept 10, 2013 2:00:57 GMT -5
Ungrounded anxiety (fear that seems to have no obvious cause) is almost universal in humans to some degree. In general, it's the result of habitually repressing negative feelings over a long period of time in many situations, and so it's true there is no specific cause of any particular incident of anxiety. Something may trigger it, and most folks point to that trigger as the cause, and in other cases mind will search for a cause after the fact, as you describe, and basically make something up. (something all minds are proficient at) Both of those responses are essentially unconscious reactions, as one is not actually aware of what's happening, and so if one is relatively conscious, they may not be accepted as explanations for the anxiety. Unless one is in denial, or has transcended it, it's 'normal' to experience an unsettled feeling all the time, in the background, and this is why folks look for distractions and ways to stay hyper busy. One way to bring this anxiety to the surface is to be alone with oneself with nothing to do. For obvious reasons, this is a major societal taboo. Never be alone and always be doing something or society will tell you something is wrong with you. The proof of that is that you will start to feel anxious. Heh. I am so NOT busy right now, it's ridiculous. Spending a lot of time alone with nothing to do, as my usual occupying activities have been, one by one, stripped from me. You may be on to something here. Deep down I know it's all going to be fine and I'll be okay, yet lately I am having that unexplained, ungrounded anxiety coming over me. Every now and then I fret - "I *should* do this, I *should* do that... " but then that subsides into nothing. I just keep waiting for the "next big thing" to capture my attention and give me something to care about again. But it's been months and months now. Today I'm not all that anxious, but I woke up feeling thoroughly depressed and mulling darkly over how it's all ... pointless. But I know from ample experience "this too shall pass." Blech. Sounds like you're doing a little purification. It can help to know what's going on, and that it's very beneficial. |
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Post by silence on Sept 10, 2013 18:54:11 GMT -5
The ability to artificially induce fear is at the core of human suffering. You think old age, sickness, death, the loss of the self and the unknown is 'artificially' induced?!... I'm talking about the human ability to create fear with thought. |
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Post by silence on Sept 10, 2013 19:42:12 GMT -5
I get what you are saying here (bolded part) but that has not been my experience, as someone born with a jumpy anxious temperament who's battled anxiety disorders. The way I'm wired, sometimes fear/anxiety arises for no reason whatsoever. There's no cause -- no external threat, no imagined threat either. While it is possible that you're having some sort of biological malfunction, unfounded fear and anxiety is incredibly common. If we're to assume you're not malfunctioning, it must be clear that in some shape or form a threat is being perceived. There's a lot of discussion that happens here about how any tom dick or harry can look and see there's no separate self and yet that constricted ultimately anxious ridden experience continues anyway (Allen Watts called it the quivering mess). This experience of a separate self becomes much less of an obvious thoughts streaming across your consciousness and more of a subtle baseline experience of being under attack. At the core is thought attaching to the bodies sense of survival and projecting an entire world with a center that must overcome all obstacles and yet always knowing it is eventually doomed to fail and die. One literally becomes afraid of life and that fear can vary wildly depending on how much one feels it necessary to "hold it all together" as opposed to simply letting go. |
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Post by silence on Sept 10, 2013 19:47:16 GMT -5
Deep down I know it's all going to be fine and I'll be okay, yet lately I am having that unexplained, ungrounded anxiety coming over me. I'd say it's precisely the opposite. |
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