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Post by laughter on Aug 26, 2013 10:21:41 GMT -5
If you don't like or can't find Reefs' beeline, then recognize that you can only take the infinitude one question at a time ... just relax and let them come. The other thing to consider is that maybe it's not really an infinitude after all. There are a few attributes of what you are that do find general agreement and one of these is limitlessness. If you are unlimited, then what you aren't isn't ... now you might be tempted here to entertain the idea that what you aren't can be unlimited as well, but if that were true then there'd be two instances of limitless. Sounds sorta' koanish eh? The beeline -- I Am -- or the answer to Do I Exist? is a no brainer. It takes not an iota of attention to know that one exists. Whether there is a quality of limitlessness to existence or not seems to be more conjecture to me. If by "no brainer" you mean something that you feel, then ... yup. Otherwise ... For me, and alot of people, that feeling is at first quite subtle and quiet and the pattern of thought and emotion that would attach to it greets it with restlessness.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 10:26:58 GMT -5
The beeline -- I Am -- or the answer to Do I Exist? is a no brainer. It takes not an iota of attention to know that one exists. Whether there is a quality of limitlessness to existence or not seems to be more conjecture to me. If by "no brainer" you mean something that you feel, then ... yup. Otherwise ... For me, and alot of people, that feeling is at first quite subtle and quiet and the pattern of thought and emotion that would attach to it greets it with restlessness. I'd call it a knowing. I suppose feeling works but it wouldn't be my first choice. I wouldn't call it subtle either. Quiet maybe. Silence works.
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Post by laughter on Aug 26, 2013 10:33:47 GMT -5
If by "no brainer" you mean something that you feel, then ... yup. Otherwise ... For me, and alot of people, that feeling is at first quite subtle and quiet and the pattern of thought and emotion that would attach to it greets it with restlessness. I'd call it a knowing. I suppose feeling works but it wouldn't be my first choice. I wouldn't call it subtle either. Quiet maybe. Silence works. Sounds real to me ... and the rest of it, all the ideas, just shoot first and ask questions later! The one caveat to that I'd say would be ZD's collections of testimony because there seems to be as many trap designs as there are people, and some version of the beeline of resting in awareness absent the realization seems as common a one as denying and covering up the realization with stories and theories. ps: Silence yes ... sublime silence ...
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Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2013 10:35:24 GMT -5
Look at all the different "pathways" and pointers. What do they all have in common? Shifting attention away from thoughts. Sengstan summarized the essence when he wrote,
"The more you talk and think about it the further away you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, And there is nothing you will not be able to know."
Whenever my mother used to become uncomfortable with the direction a conversation was going, she would suddenly point out the window and exclaim, "Look, a bird!" (or a squirrel, sunset, etc) It would totally stop the conversation, and it eventually became a family joke. I often think about her attention-shifting technique in relation to spiritual inquiry, but rather than suggesting that people look at something specific, the admonition can be significantly shortened to, "Look!" Look until the looker and the looked at are recognized to be one and the same.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 10:40:49 GMT -5
Look at all the different "pathways" and pointers. What do they all have in common? Shifting attention away from thoughts. Sengstan summarized the essence when he wrote, "The more you talk and think about it the further away you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, And there is nothing you will not be able to know." Whenever my mother used to become uncomfortable with the direction a conversation was going, she would suddenly point out the window and exclaim, "Look, a bird!" (or a squirrel, sunset, etc) It would totally stop the conversation, and it eventually became a family joke. I often think about her attention-shifting technique in relation to spiritual inquiry, but rather than suggesting that people look at something specific, the admonition can be significantly shortened to, "Look!" Look until the looker and the looked at are recognized to be one and the same. Hehe. ZD you're like a master conversationalist whose main message is to abolish the conversation. It's like a little merry-go-round. If you get the message you go flinging off. If you don't get the message you hold on and get dizzy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 10:41:40 GMT -5
Whoops. I accidentally posted the same thing twice. How can a duplicate post be deleted? There's a little gear button in the upper right. Click the little arrow next to it and choose delete.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2013 10:54:58 GMT -5
Whoops. I accidentally posted the same thing twice. How can a duplicate post be deleted? There's a little gear button in the upper right. Click the little arrow next to it and choose delete. Cool. Thanks.
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Post by enigma on Aug 26, 2013 11:00:05 GMT -5
That's where it can be useful to question the assumption that you can be one of the 'things' that appears to you. This assumption is so deeply ingrained because we begin with the conviction 'I am the body/mind', and from there it seems obvious that 'I can be an appearance'. You can't actually find yourself as an appearance appearing to yourself. You don't ever appear. It doesn't matter how many fish appear in the barrel. You can't be any of them. I'm down with shooting those fish. It's a useful activity. I'm trying to figure out if the claim that my fundamental nature never was born, will never die, is changeless, limitless, etc. is a fish or not. If it is I'm gonna shoot it. You don't have to shoot any of the fish. The fish, the water, the barrel, the gun, the body shooting the gun, the mind thoughts about shooting, are all appearing to what you really are, obviously, which never appears. I'm saying if you know about it, it can't be the one who knows. See that, and you're done collecting dead fish with your neti-neti.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 11:34:40 GMT -5
I'm down with shooting those fish. It's a useful activity. I'm trying to figure out if the claim that my fundamental nature never was born, will never die, is changeless, limitless, etc. is a fish or not. If it is I'm gonna shoot it. You don't have to shoot any of the fish. The fish, the water, the barrel, the gun, the body shooting the gun, the mind thoughts about shooting, are all appearing to what you really are, obviously, which never appears. I'm saying if you know about it, it can't be the one who knows. See that, and you're done collecting dead fish with your neti-neti. There's that wiggly one again! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! I keep thinking I've shot it but it seems to slip through a big hole in my neti neti again.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 26, 2013 11:56:24 GMT -5
The important thing is not to discover what is truly real, we don't actually care about that anyway, not if we have to die in a couple of years anyhow. The important thing is to fully identify with the most pleasurable belief, namely the belief that we are all these superlatives, i.e. eternal, divine etc. The problem is that we are not so easily fooled. The challenge is how to manipulate the unconscious.
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Post by enigma on Aug 26, 2013 12:03:05 GMT -5
You don't have to shoot any of the fish. The fish, the water, the barrel, the gun, the body shooting the gun, the mind thoughts about shooting, are all appearing to what you really are, obviously, which never appears. I'm saying if you know about it, it can't be the one who knows. See that, and you're done collecting dead fish with your neti-neti. There's that wiggly one again! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! I keep thinking I've shot it but it seems to slip through a big hole in my neti neti again. Right, as an idea it just keeps swimming around. It's more subtle than that and requires something other than your 12 gauge. Aren't you further back than anything that appears in front of you? As the one to whom all appearances appear, can you be one of those appearances? You don't have to figure it out. It's already obvious. You just have to look and see.
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Post by enigma on Aug 26, 2013 12:12:15 GMT -5
The important thing is not to discover what is truly real, we don't actually care about that anyway, not if we have to die in a couple of years anyhow. The important thing is to fully identify with the most pleasurable belief, namely the belief that we are all these superlatives, i.e. eternal, divine etc. The problem is that we are not so easily fooled. The challenge is how to manipulate the unconscious. The illusion that drives the seeking of happiness over unhappiness has to be seen through. That doesn't stop the pleasure/pain cycle, which is just life happening, but it will remove the struggle of identifying with pleasurable beliefs and manipulating the unconscious.
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Post by silver on Aug 26, 2013 12:18:28 GMT -5
That's where it can be useful to question the assumption that you can be one of the 'things' that appears to you. This assumption is so deeply ingrained because we begin with the conviction 'I am the body/mind', and from there it seems obvious that 'I can be an appearance'. You can't actually find yourself as an appearance appearing to yourself. You don't ever appear. It doesn't matter how many fish appear in the barrel. You can't be any of them. I'm down with shooting those fish. It's a useful activity. I'm trying to figure out if the claim that my fundamental nature never was born, will never die, is changeless, limitless, etc. is a fish or not. If it is I'm gonna shoot it. I would, too. Just maybe you're on the right track and they aren't. (Who's the authority on that?)
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 26, 2013 12:19:04 GMT -5
The important thing is not to discover what is truly real, we don't actually care about that anyway, not if we have to die in a couple of years anyhow. The important thing is to fully identify with the most pleasurable belief, namely the belief that we are all these superlatives, i.e. eternal, divine etc. The problem is that we are not so easily fooled. The challenge is how to manipulate the unconscious. The illusion that drives the seeking of happiness over unhappiness has to be seen through. That doesn't stop the pleasure/pain cycle, which is just life happening, but it will remove the struggle of identifying with pleasurable beliefs and manipulating the unconscious. Yeah, like I said, the important thing is to fully identify with the most pleasurable belief, even if the belief is about seeing through whatever you're talking about.
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Post by silver on Aug 26, 2013 12:21:01 GMT -5
There's a little gear button in the upper right. Click the little arrow next to it and choose delete. Cool. Thanks. haha, he's staff and he doesn't know every little thing. Oh, here he is in one case... just found it in my emails this morn'
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